In Defense of Imperium of Man

[ATP]

Armageddon pattern Basilisk has closed turret like modern SPGs, Mars-Solar pattern is also enclosed, and many modern ones, especially the wheeled kind, have open mounts too. The gun is a bit smaller than modern ones, but Imperium may have different strategic needs, and also uses different explosives.

Basilisks aren't the only artillery IG has, just the most common. For one they use massive siege mortars rare in modern armies, like Medusa and Colossus.

But they aren't a modern army, if they have to attack something too hard for their artillery, they have the Imperial Navy and AdMech to ask to bring much bigger guns to the fight, in fact they aren't supposed to be too independent.

1.132mm is still to small,even with good turret
2.Who need siege mortars? if eenemy had artillery,they are dead.If not,you do not need them.
3.IN - their support could kill you,AdMech - they help when they feel like that.Which mean,that if IoM invaded us,our obsolate army would kick their asses for next 10-20 years.

 

[Marduk]

1.132mm is still to small,even with good turret

Depends for what. 122mm and 105mm are still used over the world, and those are old.
BTW India has a modernish 130mm SPG.
Also they rarely have precision ammo for those anyway, so they are probably better off leaving counter-artillery work to other forces, or their tactical ballistic missiles.

2.Who need siege mortars? if eenemy had artillery,they are dead.If not,you do not need them.

That applies to normal armies with normal artillery. They most often fight orks, who usually hate using long range artillery. They are for destroying heavy fortifications of course.

3.IN - their support could kill you,AdMech - they help when they feel like that.Which mean,that if IoM invaded us,our obsolate army would kick their asses for next 10-20 years.

If they are fighting an enemy competent and well equipped to create those problems, and on the offensive at that, they would expect AdMech, IN or Astartes support. IN can bombard rear areas of the enemy without much threat of friendly fire, it's just close support from them that's dangerous, and they do make up for the lack of accuracy with sheer firepower that's closer to modern tactical nuclear weapons than conventional artillery. Astartes or AdMech ships can also do it, and much more accurately. Speaking of, in lore Astartes often are the ones who take the job of destroying enemy artillery.

 

[Zyobot]

If anything, I'd actually say the Galactic Empire makes a way better fascist state than the Imperium of Man does.

Nazi-inspired uniforms and aesthetics, explicit distaste for liberal democracy, a personality cult that (unlike Big E) Palpatine deliberately built up to portray himself as the Galaxy's savior, all hallmarks of a regime that's everything the 40K critics accuse the Imperium of being. And unlike 40K humanity, the Empire has very little justification for being as repressive as it is, by the standards of SW.

 

[evilchumlee]

If anything, I'd actually say the Galactic Empire makes a way better fascist state than the Imperium of Man does.

Nazi-inspired uniforms and aesthetics, explicit distaste for liberal democracy, a personality cult that (unlike Big E) Palpatine deliberately built up to portray himself as the Galaxy's savior, all hallmarks of a regime that's everything the 40K critics accuse the Imperium of being. And unlike 40K humanity, the Empire has very little justification for being as repressive as it is, by the standards of SW.

Oh yeah the GE is just straight up fascist.

Although in the circles that will complain about the IoM, they'll complain about the GE too. In my experience, they tend to focus a bit more on the IoM specifically because Games Workshop has established the justifications for it to be what it is.

The GE is just evil for the sake of being evil, so it's... "more acceptable".
The IoM is evil, and then gets justification on why it's evil, which to some is way worse.

I've had a recent argument elsewhere where they were upset that 40k seems to celebrate the "fascism" of the IoM as if it's a good thing. I personally think that's... part of the universe and part of what makes it good. It's ok to separate reality from fiction. It's ok to like fake bad things, within reason. We will all have our points where we draw a line.

 

[Aldarion]

Oh yeah the GE is just straight up fascist.

Although in the circles that will complain about the IoM, they'll complain about the GE too. In my experience, they tend to focus a bit more on the IoM specifically because Games Workshop has established the justifications for it to be what it is.

The GE is just evil for the sake of being evil, so it's... "more acceptable".
The IoM is evil, and then gets justification on why it's evil, which to some is way worse.

I've had a recent argument elsewhere where they were upset that 40k seems to celebrate the "fascism" of the IoM as if it's a good thing. I personally think that's... part of the universe and part of what makes it good. It's ok to separate reality from fiction. It's ok to like fake bad things, within reason. We will all have our points where we draw a line.

I think they just don't like the idea of a universe where their ideals of democracy, equality and progressivism simply do not work. Warhammer 40k is a setting where traditionalism is the basis of survival and any progress brings massive dangers, and thus it is inherently against Leftist values. And Imperium of Man is not evil; it does a lot of evil things, but that is simply the nature of survival in an imperfect reality.

By contrast, Galactic Empire is clearly shown to be in the wrong, and the galaxy itself would be a peaceful utopia if only that darn GE would get out of the way. Therefore, it does not challenge the progressive values in a way that Imperium of Man does, and is thus automatically seen as less evil despite, objectively, being far worse than even the Imperium at its worst.

 

[evilchumlee]

I think they just don't like the idea of a universe where their ideals of democracy, equality and progressivism simply do not work. Warhammer 40k is a setting where traditionalism is the basis of survival and any progress brings massive dangers, and thus it is inherently against Leftist values. And Imperium of Man is not evil; it does a lot of evil things, but that is simply the nature of survival in an imperfect reality.

I don't think you're entirely wrong there, although I would probably still label the IoM pretty damn evil. Yes there's alot done for survival and that is what it is but... there's also alot that's not. When the IoM is willing to genocide a planet for like, not properly worshipping the Emperor... that's about as evil as it gets.

I also don't think it's ENTIRELY true that some of those ideals don't work. The IoM could have... some peace and progress if it wanted to. The Tau would almost certainly be willing to come to the table and talk about not fighting... but, they're filthy xenos.

I want the IoM to essentially be "bad guys". It's part of the fun.

On the topic, a mild derail here with a personal thing i'd like to see and kind of headcanon into 40k... the Emperor's carcass on the Golden Throne isn't actually doing anything. The things the IoM attribute to him having a hand in is done through some ancient technology still up and running or what not. When Guilliman comes back an "communes" with the Emperor... he knows exactly what he's doing and what's up.

 

[Marduk]

I think they just don't like the idea of a universe where their ideals of democracy, equality and progressivism simply do not work. Warhammer 40k is a setting where traditionalism is the basis of survival and any progress brings massive dangers, and thus it is inherently against Leftist values. And Imperium of Man is not evil; it does a lot of evil things, but that is simply the nature of survival in an imperfect reality.

By contrast, Galactic Empire is clearly shown to be in the wrong, and the galaxy itself would be a peaceful utopia if only that darn GE would get out of the way. Therefore, it does not challenge the progressive values in a way that Imperium of Man does, and is thus automatically seen as less evil despite, objectively, being far worse than even the Imperium at its worst.

Yeah, in 40k setting there are some known facts regarding the viability of certain kinds of politics that do not necessarily apply in other settings.

For one freedom of religion is a suicide pact there. It's only a matter of time and chance before a chaos cult by any name pops up and tries to kill everyone, summon daemons, drag the planet into the warp or otherwise wreck your shit. If you don't monitor all developments in religion, warp lore, psykery and any related fields, with willingness to prevent the wrong kinds of knowledge being kept and used, by extreme violence if need be, you are effectively sitting on a timed warp bomb.

Same goes for psykers, can't leave them alone. If you can't find them and then train, contain or kill them, you are screwed, eventually, for the same reason as above.

Isolationism or trying to build some kind of pacifist utopia in your corner of galaxy also doesn't work, because that universe is bustling with interstellar threats. You may get away with it for some centuries, millenia even, but eventually some Ork warboss, Tyranid hivefleet, Dark Eldar raid or other Chaos warband will stumble upon you and if you aren't prepared to deal with them the 40k way, it's not gonna end well for ya.

 

[Gladiator]

The Imperium of Man is evil out of necessity. They have to be like this, or it's not just death. It's death, and an eternity of murder rape in the Warp. Orks are literally monsters who can't live without war. Killing them is okay. They will even thank you for a good death because of their war boner. Give them a good fight, and they are happy, even if they die. It's hard to do wrong by an Ork even if you are actually doing wrong against them. Since they love that shit. It's inherent to them on a biological level.

Any actual crimes against an Ork would be actually being nice to them, or inviting them to fucking tea. That is basically like killing their parents. If you want to make an Ork happy? Try to kill him in an extremely cool way. Best friend forever.

The Imperium's stance on other aliens is less justifiable, but still is in many cases. Tyranids are literally space locusts. Exterminatus immediately. The Eldar are assholes who hate them just as much, and consider they subhuman. Kill or be killed. The dark eldar are fucking batshit hedonists who love murder rape too. The only real victims would be the tau, and even they are suspect because they love their brainwashing. They are open to negotiation and cooperation with humans though. Which makes any genocidal acts against them pretty heinous. They have the concept of mercy, and consolidating resources via recruiting from defeated enemy forces. They even have freedom of religion for everyone. Tau stick out like a sore thumb, and make anti-xeno sentiment a problem.

It normally isn't, but that's because all other aliens are bastards.

 

[Marduk]

The Imperium's stance on other aliens is less justifiable, but still is in many cases. Tyranids are literally space locusts. Exterminatus immediately. The Eldar are assholes who hate them just as much, and consider they subhuman. Kill or be killed. The dark eldar are fucking batshit hedonists who love murder rape too. The only real victims would be the tau, and even they are suspect because they love their brainwashing. They are open to negotiation and cooperation with humans though. Which makes any genocidal acts against them pretty heinous. They have the concept of mercy, and consolidating resources via recruiting from defeated enemy forces.

Tau are still CCP on steroids style empire that braiwashes everyone and sterilizes conquered populations whose loyalty it isn't sure about.

They even have freedom of religion for everyone. Tau stick out like a sore thumb, and make anti-xeno sentiment a problem.

Also they are dangerous to themselves due to being hopelessly ignorant about everything warp and chaos related.
It's even touched upon in lore sometimes.

Ur-Clemait Civil War - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum

wh40k.lexicanum.com

Rotigus

Rotigus, also called "Rotigus Rainmaker", "Rainfather" and the "Generous One," is a powerful Great Unclean One, a Greater Daemon of Nurgle. Rotigus is the epitome of Nurgle's generosity and fecundity. None, save for the Lord of Decay himself, is more attuned to the woes of the world. In their...

warhammer40k.fandom.com

Yes, they tried to assimilate a Word Bearers recruiting world without removing the whole chaos worship thing, and joined some feral worlder's Nurgle cult because it seemingly worked to bring rain.

 

[Gladiator]

Tau are still CCP on steroids style empire that braiwashes everyone and sterilizes conquered populations whose loyalty it isn't sure about.

Also they are dangerous to themselves due to being hopelessly ignorant about everything warp and chaos related.
It's even touched upon in lore sometimes.

Ur-Clemait Civil War - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum

wh40k.lexicanum.com

Rotigus

Rotigus, also called "Rotigus Rainmaker", "Rainfather" and the "Generous One," is a powerful Great Unclean One, a Greater Daemon of Nurgle. Rotigus is the epitome of Nurgle's generosity and fecundity. None, save for the Lord of Decay himself, is more attuned to the woes of the world. In their...

warhammer40k.fandom.com

Yes, they tried to assimilate a Word Bearers recruiting world without removing the whole chaos worship thing, and joined some feral worlder's Nurgle cult because it seemingly worked to bring rain.

Not really their fault there for the last one. More chaos being chaos, and the nature of the world being fucked up the ass.

Still relatively nice compared to other xenos.

 

[Aldarion]

I don't think you're entirely wrong there, although I would probably still label the IoM pretty damn evil. Yes there's alot done for survival and that is what it is but... there's also alot that's not. When the IoM is willing to genocide a planet for like, not properly worshipping the Emperor... that's about as evil as it gets.

I would disagree with that.

Consider the danger of not properly worshipping the Emperor: Warp entities gain power from emotions, including beliefs. Even if the Emperor is not a god just yet, he is well on the way to becoming one because he is being worshipped.

Improper worship however risks giving rise to a hostile Warp entity or alternatively empowering one of Chaos gods or Daemons.

So really, genociding a planet for not properly worshipping the Emperor is not really "as evil as it gets". Especially since Imperium only does it in extremis. You see, Imperium is in fact willing to accept certain heterogeneity of beliefs - it actually practices syncretism on a galactic scale. You can worship Jesus, Greek Pantheon, Buddha, spirits of nature... so long as you accept the Emperor as God or at least "God in Chief" (e.g. Zeus for my Greek Pantheon example), Imperium doesn't really care about the specifics. So you have to be really out of the line for Imperium to genocide you.

When looking at the overall picture, Imperium is probably more tolerant than like 99% of monotheistic religions historically were.

I also don't think it's ENTIRELY true that some of those ideals don't work. The IoM could have... some peace and progress if it wanted to. The Tau would almost certainly be willing to come to the table and talk about not fighting... but, they're filthy xenos.

And Imperial attitude towards the filthy xenos is again, by and large, justified. Pre-Fall Humanity in fact was all too happy to cooperate with various xeno species, only for those to turn against humanity as soon as doing so became viable. So saying that Imperium would even have "some" peace and progress if it only made peace with xenos is not actually supported by the available evidence, and in any case, Imperium is not exactly in position to risk it.

Also, Imperium is nowhere as extremist about "Kill All Xenos" as you seem to believe.

Imperium and Tau are in fact willing to cooperate against external threats. But Tau are still an expansionist power bent on galactic conquest - their ideology is basically Space Communism for crying out loud - so even entertaining idea of some grand alliance or permanent truce would be extremely dangerous.

I want the IoM to essentially be "bad guys". It's part of the fun.

Define "bad guys". Because when you look at it, everybody is a "bad guy" by modern standards.

But Imperium is still one of the better factions. At least they and the Craftworld Eldar are fighting for survival.

Others?
Tau are Space Communists who want to establish some screwed-up 1984 / Brave New World crossover galaxy-wide.
Dark Eldar are psychotic BDSM fetishists who do not ask for your consent before pulling you into bloody orgies.
Orks are psychotic football hooligans who want to do nothing but fight.
Chaos are psychotic cultists looking to feed the entire galaxy to their gods.
Tyranids are a swarm of space locusts who took a look at the galaxy and concluded "GIANT PIZZA SALAD BUFFET".

On the topic, a mild derail here with a personal thing i'd like to see and kind of headcanon into 40k... the Emperor's carcass on the Golden Throne isn't actually doing anything. The things the IoM attribute to him having a hand in is done through some ancient technology still up and running or what not. When Guilliman comes back an "communes" with the Emperor... he knows exactly what he's doing and what's up.

That explanation, I think, is completely unnecessary and runs counter to established canon for how beliefs and Warp work.

Even if you assume that the Emperor had been long dead, fact that citizens of Imperium believe that he is alive means that yes, he is alive.

Also, we have Guilliman's inner thoughts confirming that yes, the Emperor is indeed alive.

 

[evilchumlee]

Define "bad guys". Because when you look at it, everybody is a "bad guy" by modern standards.

But Imperium is still one of the better factions. At least they and the Craftworld Eldar are fighting for survival.

Tau are Space Communists who want to establish some screwed-up 1984 / Brave New World crossover galaxy-wide.

That's more what I meant. I like that in 40k, there are no good guys. Everyone is bad.

Although if I absolutely had to pick, i'd totally live with the Tau over the IoM.

 

[Aldarion]

That's more what I meant. I like that in 40k, there are no good guys. Everyone is bad.

Although if I absolutely had to pick, i'd totally live with the Tau over the IoM.

Thing is, trying to be a "good guy" by modern stanards in 40k would itself be pretty evil.

Setting simply doesn't allow it.

 

[evilchumlee]

Thing is, trying to be a "good guy" by modern stanards in 40k would itself be pretty evil.

Setting simply doesn't allow it.

On a side note, that's another gripe that some people have. 40k is "problematic" because it justifies the IoM's attitudes on aliens by portraying the aliens as evil.

Like, I don't know what these people want. "Nice happy unicorns 40k" doesn't even make any sense.

 

[Gladiator]

On a side note, that's another gripe that some people have. 40k is "problematic" because it justifies the IoM's attitudes on aliens by portraying the aliens as evil.

Like, I don't know what these people want. "Nice happy unicorns 40k" doesn't even make any sense.

They can't comprehend the notion of objective good and evil, and that an entire race be representative of it in fiction. Just look at Goblin Slayer. Goblins are literally created by a god to solely pillage and rape. This to the point there are not any goblin women, goblin children are exact clones of their father in every sense of the word, and do not inherent any traits from their mother. Goblins can only procreate by rape of other species, and the traits of those other species are not even passed on to their children. Making their species, as a whole, a genetic dead end. If they actually conquered the world they would destroy all races, and eventually destroy themselves. Since they need other races to even exist.

And people were still crying about their rights. When Goblin Slayer went around smashing goblin kids. When the story goes out of the way to show us that even goblin kids are by default murderous rapists, and make use of their apparent "innocence" to murder and rape.

This is because they view fiction as a vehicle to propagate their own beliefs. Rather than any kind of fiction. Greatly restricting the subject matter. They don't want objective good and evil to exist as a concept. They want it to be mutable. Everything to be complex or layered. All a big grey blob. "Well, he may eat people but he also donates to charity and loves kids."

When this is not even true in real life. Sometimes people are just bastards. Despite having great lives. Maybe even because of that. Sometimes people are nice. Despite having gone through hell. Maybe even because of that.

Nature does not factor in their world. Only nurture.

 

[ATP]

Depends for what. 122mm and 105mm are still used over the world, and those are old.
BTW India has a modernish 130mm SPG.
Also they rarely have precision ammo for those anyway, so they are probably better off leaving counter-artillery work to other forces, or their tactical ballistic missiles.

That applies to normal armies with normal artillery. They most often fight orks, who usually hate using long range artillery. They are for destroying heavy fortifications of course.

If they are fighting an enemy competent and well equipped to create those problems, and on the offensive at that, they would expect AdMech, IN or Astartes support. IN can bombard rear areas of the enemy without much threat of friendly fire, it's just close support from them that's dangerous, and they do make up for the lack of accuracy with sheer firepower that's closer to modern tactical nuclear weapons than conventional artillery. Astartes or AdMech ships can also do it, and much more accurately. Speaking of, in lore Astartes often are the ones who take the job of destroying enemy artillery.

1.Still obsolate
2.Then,they would fall to any normal enemy.
3.yes,IN could destroy our factories,and then IG would win when we would be out of ammo.
But,there is 1 Astarte for each IoM planet,so i doubt they would get any to take Poland.
AdMech come only for STC or when they must,so they would not come here,too.

Which lead to conclusion,that our pitiful obsolate army would still beat IG,as long as they would have ammo.
Which mean,that IG is even more pitiful then we are.

 

[Yinko]

Becouse it is impossible to explain why dudes with lasers must fight in melee.

It's fucking easy.

Go the Dune route, make it so that the consequences of ranged combat are unthinkable.

Make it so that defenses are super strong, while attacking methods are strong only inches away from their emitters and then peter off exponentially. Essentially, lightsaber up close, dim flashlight far away.

 

[ATP]

It's fucking easy.

Go the Dune route, make it so that the consequences of ranged combat are unthinkable.

Make it so that defenses are super strong, while attacking methods are strong only inches away from their emitters and then peter off exponentially. Essentially, lightsaber up close, dim flashlight far away.

Damn,i forget Dune.You are right,there is logical reason why fight in melee there.
But,it still do not change fact,that there is no such reason in WH40.
Becouse current pitiful polish army would wipe out orcs and IG as long as we have enough ammo for our artillery.

 

[Marduk]

1.Still obsolate

What is obsolete or not depends on the circumstances and the enemy.

2.Then,they would fall to any normal enemy.

What is a normal enemy in 40k, just fucking explained it to you.

3.yes,IN could destroy our factories,and then IG would win when we would be out of ammo.
But,there is 1 Astarte for each IoM planet,so i doubt they would get any to take Poland.
AdMech come only for STC or when they must,so they would not come here,too.

Which lead to conclusion,that our pitiful obsolate army would still beat IG,as long as they would have ammo.
Which mean,that IG is even more pitiful then we are.

Your conclusion is pre-assumed and bad.
IG generally doesn't invade technologically advanced planets alone without anyone else's support. And it's kinda by intent, they aren't supposed to be able to do that, because rebellions and chaos happen.

 

[ATP]

What is obsolete or not depends on the circumstances and the enemy.

What is a normal enemy in 40k, just fucking explained it to you.


Your conclusion is pre-assumed and bad.
IG generally doesn't invade technologically advanced planets alone without anyone else's support. And it's kinda by intent, they aren't supposed to be able to do that, because rebellions and chaos happen.

1.Still should not exist in world where DE raids happen.
2.Enemy who had and use artillery.
3.Making your force obsolate,becouse they would rebel otherwise? well,why send them to fight at all,then?