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Israel versus Palestine: 2021 Edition

Husky_Khan

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Would YOU like to live in a city that depends on a c-ram's effectiveness to be able to live without explosives landing randomly on your head? It's bad enough that we have to depend on Iron Dome.
Lifes rough in a lot of places. I'm merely asking if it's a feasible defensive option.
 

Zachowon

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Would YOU like to live in a city that depends on a c-ram's effectiveness to be able to live without explosives landing randomly on your head? It's bad enough that we have to depend on Iron Dome.
Yes.
Because I would rather have both then none at all when a war could break out.

I get it isnt the best, but better then nothijg
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
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Would YOU like to live in a city that depends on a c-ram's effectiveness to be able to live without explosives landing randomly on your head? It's bad enough that we have to depend on Iron Dome.
Actually, I'd sleep sounder at night if I had the level of SHORAD around me that you do.

It'd really help back-up the AMB shield against smaller munitions and drones.
 

Bear Ribs

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As I understand it, C-RAM only has about a 50-60% success rate with it creeping up towards about 70% under optimal circumstances. That's why Iron Dome's 90% is so revolutionary. If they get fired on by 1,400 mortars and can only intercept two-thirds of those instead of 90%, that's a lot more dead people. Additionally, at those ranges, people will only have a few seconds of warning so the number of civilians who can reach a shelter in time will drop increasing casualties even more.

The other issue is that going off the 1967 lines, Jerusalem can be under fire from three directions simultaneously so they need far more defenses for it than they do now where all the missiles are coming from the same general direction.
 

Zachowon

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As I understand it, C-RAM only has about a 50-60% success rate with it creeping up towards about 70% under optimal circumstances. That's why Iron Dome's 90% is so revolutionary. If they get fired on by 1,400 mortars and can only intercept two-thirds of those instead of 90%, that's a lot more dead people. Additionally, at those ranges, people will only have a few seconds of warning so the number of civilians who can reach a shelter in time will drop increasing casualties even more.

The other issue is that going off the 1967 lines, Jerusalem can be under fire from three directions simultaneously so they need far more defenses for it than they do now where all the missiles are coming from the same general direction.
That is why you have a LOT of C-RAMS
 

Zachowon

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That's an option, but a better one is "Don't give Hamas territory surrounding Jerusalem on all sides at point-blank range for an empty promise of temporary ceasefire."
Oh for sure.
But that is what you call a backup plan. Have them for if things don't go well
 

Knowledgeispower

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Well that and being way way way cheaper on a per shot basis than Iron Doke
 

Zachowon

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Resources are limited, what military expenditure would you cut, to field the required number of C-RAMs? Armor, artillery or infantry?
Well depends on the doctrine of the.military
 

GoldRanger

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That's an option, but a better one is "Don't give Hamas territory surrounding Jerusalem on all sides at point-blank range for an empty promise of temporary ceasefire."
It's not only Jerusalem. If the Palestinians (and, consequently, Hamas) get the 1967 borders, Tel Aviv and its suburbs would also be too close to the border. Like, the 1967 lines are as wide as Manhattan Island is long in some places. No way Israel would voluntarily accept such borders.
 

S'task

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It's not only Jerusalem. If the Palestinians (and, consequently, Hamas) get the 1967 borders, Tel Aviv and its suburbs would also be too close to the border. Like, the 1967 lines are as wide as Manhattan Island is long in some places. No way Israel would voluntarily accept such borders.
My understanding is that the 1967 borders are strategically and tactically unfeasible for Israel, everyone knows it too, which means that everyone knows they cannot accept them. As such, why do folks not propose a border solution for the two-state solution that HAS strategically acceptable borders for Israel?

Or is it just a way to make the Israelis look unreasonable?
 

Aaron Fox

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My understanding is that the 1967 borders are strategically and tactically unfeasible for Israel, everyone knows it too, which means that everyone knows they cannot accept them. As such, why do folks not propose a border solution for the two-state solution that HAS strategically acceptable borders for Israel?

Or is it just a way to make the Israelis look unreasonable?
Largely because that's been the previous talking point in negotiations with the addition of 'defensive-minded land swaps'...
 

Marduk

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My understanding is that the 1967 borders are strategically and tactically unfeasible for Israel, everyone knows it too, which means that everyone knows they cannot accept them. As such, why do folks not propose a border solution for the two-state solution that HAS strategically acceptable borders for Israel?

Or is it just a way to make the Israelis look unreasonable?
Because the Arabs, both as a point of pride and tactics, insist on that, at very minimum. The islamist faction among Arabs, as represented by Hamas and few lesser organizations, is especially not interested in a long term peace - after all, that would be heresy to their ideology, nevermind that it would obsolete their very own organizations, whose whole basis of existence is militancy after all, its not like Hamas can claim competence as good stewards of the economy and win a fair election on that ground. However, they very interested in buying tactical advantages for a short term peace, which is precisely why their list of demands is structured the way it is - designed to cause a short peace, after which they can return to war with a big set of advantages they didn't have before. The demanded advantages for future war are massive and obvious, but a no deal situation is also one they are fine with.
 

commanderkai

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I'm so tired of the pre-67 thing. It's basically this:

"Yeah we know we blockaded Israel, and triggered the Six Day War....only for us to be completely wrecked. We want to wipe out Israel's accomplishments, for peace."

I've unironically been told Israel should compromise to "save face" for the Palestinians, even when the Palestinians literally offer nothing in return except for a "truce". The closest chance of them getting the 67 borders was the Oslo Accords, and the PLO/Hamas et al spat in Israel's face over it.

The longer the Palestinian leadership continues fighting, the less land they'll have at the end of the day.

The road map for Israel has gone from this in 2011:





To this in 2020



Give it another 10-15 years of endless fighting, and guess what? I'm going to bet that Israel carves out more for themselves out of the lands they justly conquered from Jordan, Egypt, and Syria in six days of June back in 1967.
 

GoldRanger

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Here's a graphical representation of the various countries and how much money they pledged to rebuild Gaza (in millions of dollars).

The total comes up to 1.4 billion dollars. At the very end of the recent hostilities, the official publicized estimation of Hamas for the damage in Gaza was 322 million dollars. Now that the donations have started pouring in and they realized they can milk the suckers dry, their appraisal of the damages has conveniently gone up to "over a billion dollars". Keep the money flowing, suckers!

Maybe this will help answer the question of why Hamas always starts these wars it knows it can't win.
 
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