Movies Marvel Cinematic Universe

[Husky_Khan]

Kang is a solid choice for villain. There's definitely plenty they could've worked with there but it's already been mishandled so much I don't know. Plus Jonathan Majors legal troubles (regardless of merit or veracity) make things even more difficult.

At this point I think the only possible solution is like I said before, cast Joaquin Phoenix as Kang the Conqueror... based off of character from the upcoming Ridley Scott historical epic Napoleon.

 

[Jormungandr]

Kang is a solid choice for villain. There's definitely plenty they could've worked with there but it's already been mishandled so much I don't know. Plus Jonathan Majors legal troubles (regardless of merit or veracity) make things even more difficult.

At this point I think the only possible solution is like I said before, cast Joaquin Phoenix as Kang the Conqueror... based off of character from the upcoming Ridley Scott historical epic Napoleon.

Phoenix being a batshit insane Kang variant (just say he changed his face for the lulz) that ices all the others like how the Saxon-Master did his cabinet would be a hell of an opening for Kang being the next Avengers villain.

 

[evilchumlee]

At this point I think the only possible solution is like I said before, cast Joaquin Phoenix as Kang the Conqueror... based off of character from the upcoming Ridley Scott historical epic Napoleon.

The one thing the MCU has going for it is that... they could. They've established the multiverse can cause people to be different. No explanation even neccesary.

But they did really drop the ball with Kang.

 

[Jormungandr]

The one thing the MCU has going for it is that... they could. They've established the multiverse can cause people to be different. No explanation even necessary.

But they did really drop the ball with Kang.

Hilariously, they did do this.

You've either got variations or derivations.

Derivations are if someone took an alternate path, e.g. if you choose red, a you may have chosen blue, or if you chose left and a you at the same time took a right. I decided to scratch my arse; another me decided not to, et cetera.

This is pretty much what happened with the Kangs and He Who Remains, which caused them to be different (such as one MCU Kang looking like an Egyptian pharaoh, for example) because of butterfly effects and choices.

Variations, however, are basically the batshit, off-the-wall stuff we see and stuff adapted from comics and What If's?; Sylvie, Kid Loki, animal Loki, Ultimate Loki, et cetera.

In the non-MCU, those Kang derivations are the same guy but at different times in his own history, so he went through an Egyptian Pharaoh phase like a highschool teen with being a goth or emo.

 

[Blasterbot]

On the multiverse stuff my biggest issue with it is they change the rules for it every series/movie that brings it up. they needed a universe bible/editor/producer whose job is to keep this lore coherent. as is they don't care about keeping their lore straight and it shows. the new shows often as not retcon the old shows while contradicting each other. that the Disney people can't be arsed into watching their own dreck or at least having interns do it really drives things home. that they expect others to pay for the content they make to fill up the D+ library when they don't says everything you need to know about the quality of shows they make.

 

[evilchumlee]

In the non-MCU, those Kang derivations are the same guy but at different times in his own history, so he went through an Egyptian Pharaoh phase like a highschool teen with being a goth or emo.

I actually prefer the MCU take. Some minor change somewhere on the timeline leads to... Frog Thor.

On the multiverse stuff my biggest issue with it is they change the rules for it every series/movie that brings it up.

I'm not sure that's true.

We first learned anything at all about the multiverse from Endgame, with the realization that changes to the timeline don't change the future, they just branch off into a timeline/universe.

Mysterio just... lied about it.

In Spiderman, we learn that... even Dr. Strange knows basically nothing about the multiverse.

In Dr. Strange, we learn that things crossing over from other universes can cause catastrophe.

In Loki, we learn there's an organization outside of space-time actively trying to maintain one single timeline and destroying universes.

Something might have happened in Ms. Marvel but... nobody watched that, I have no idea.

I don't really see anything that has changed. The only real oddity in all this is Old Cap at the end of Endgame. There's a number of ways to handwave that away. My personal pet theory... Cap created a new branch when he stayed back in time, one that they ended up with more knowledge of the multiverse. When he was supposed to have to gone back, he asked whoever to shift him over back to his home universe.

 

[Jormungandr]

I actually prefer the MCU take. Some minor change somewhere on the timeline leads to... Frog Thor.



I'm not sure that's true.

We first learned anything at all about the multiverse from Endgame, with the realization that changes to the timeline don't change the future, they just branch off into a timeline/universe.

Mysterio just... lied about it.

In Spiderman, we learn that... even Dr. Strange knows basically nothing about the multiverse.

In Dr. Strange, we learn that things crossing over from other universes can cause catastrophe.

In Loki, we learn there's an organization outside of space-time actively trying to maintain one single timeline and destroying universes.

Something might have happened in Ms. Marvel but... nobody watched that, I have no idea.

I don't really see anything that has changed. The only real oddity in all this is Old Cap at the end of Endgame. There's a number of ways to handwave that away. My personal pet theory... Cap created a new branch when he stayed back in time, one that they ended up with more knowledge of the multiverse. When he was supposed to have to gone back, he asked whoever to shift him over back to his home universe.

It was set-up for a while: In Peggy Carter, there are a few, throwaway bits of dialogue throughout the series about her "having someone at home", which is (later, to us) implied to be Cap, after we thought she met and married someone else. It's always been part of the prime timeline, but it wasn't revealed until Endgame.

 

[Blasterbot]

I'm not sure that's true.

We first learned anything at all about the multiverse from Endgame, with the realization that changes to the timeline don't change the future, they just branch off into a timeline/universe.

Mysterio just... lied about it.

In Spiderman, we learn that... even Dr. Strange knows basically nothing about the multiverse.

In Dr. Strange, we learn that things crossing over from other universes can cause catastrophe.

In Loki, we learn there's an organization outside of space-time actively trying to maintain one single timeline and destroying universes.

Something might have happened in Ms. Marvel but... nobody watched that, I have no idea.

I don't really see anything that has changed. The only real oddity in all this is Old Cap at the end of Endgame. There's a number of ways to handwave that away. My personal pet theory... Cap created a new branch when he stayed back in time, one that they ended up with more knowledge of the multiverse. When he was supposed to have to gone back, he asked whoever to shift him over back to his home universe.

The argument that all the characters have unreliable information on it/are liars doesn't change that they are wildly inconsistent with how they portray the wider multiverse in each and every series that touches on it. If they want to use it and want to use it across multiple series and movies you need to have the rules of what you can and can't do at least firmly set crooked across the shows. instead we just get this fucking mess of bad writing and are told to ignore it.

 

[evilchumlee]

It was set-up for a while: In Peggy Carter, there are a few, throwaway bits of dialogue throughout the series about her "having someone at home", which is (later, to us) implied to be Cap, after we thought she met and married someone else. It's always been part of the prime timeline, but it wasn't revealed until Endgame.

Winter Soldier would seem to negate all of that though... when she was old an dying it's pretty clear she had a different husband. Also, it was established time travel doesn't work that way. Cap staying in the past with Peggy would have had no effect on the "future", it would have created a branching timeline.

Old Cap is, in TVA terms, a variant. ALTHOUGH, Captain Carter also is not part of the 616 MCU. So... it's entirely possible that Endgame Cap created that branch.

The argument that all the characters have unreliable information on it/are liars doesn't change that they are wildly inconsistent with how they portray the wider multiverse in each and every series that touches on it. If they want to use it and want to use it across multiple series and movies you need to have the rules of what you can and can't do at least firmly set crooked across the shows. instead we just get this fucking mess of bad writing and are told to ignore it.

What has been inconsistent? The only things to have been inconsistent that I can see so far are Old Cap and Loki temporarily time jumping around the TVA... but that doesn't really count because the TVA has special rules anyway, existing outside of space-time altogether.

To what else are you referring?

 

[Blasterbot]

What has been inconsistent? The only things to have been inconsistent that I can see so far are Old Cap and Loki temporarily time jumping around the TVA... but that doesn't really count because the TVA has special rules anyway, existing outside of space-time altogether.

To what else are you referring?

They couldn't even be arsed into keeping shit straight between Dr Strange 1 and 2. If the guys writing the show can't be bothered to give a fuck about the 1st one they really don't give a fuck about the other 3 multiverse series that were going on at the same time.

 

[evilchumlee]

They couldn't even be arsed into keeping shit straight between Dr Strange 1 and 2. If the guys writing the show can't be bothered to give a fuck about the 1st one they really don't give a fuck about the other 3 multiverse series that were going on at the same time.

What's not straight between the two? I'm not really following.

The first Dr. Strange doesn't really do anything with the multiverse. They utilize a different dimension, which seems to be consistent in the MCU of being something distinct from an alternate universe.

A more appropriate criticism would have been how Asgard and the nine realms were treated. In the first two Thors, it seems that the "realms" are dimensions. That's eventually just... ignored.

 

[Jormungandr]

What's not straight between the two? I'm not really following.

The first Dr. Strange doesn't really do anything with the multiverse. They utilize a different dimension, which seems to be consistent in the MCU of being something distinct from an alternate universe.

A more appropriate criticism would have been how Asgard and the nine realms were treated. In the first two Thors, it seems that the "realms" are dimensions. That's eventually just... ignored.

The Nine Realms, I think, are meant to be different dimensions, with key worlds (such as Earth/Midgard and Asgard) being the anchor stones for the Bifrost/Yggdrasill -- remember that before Odin went all peaceful, he was a conqueror along with Hela; it's likely he invaded those dimensions/universes from those worlds as staging points, and the Asgardian armies plundered/conquered hundreds of worlds across each of the nine dimensions.

It'd be as if the Combine from Half Life 2 didn't just invade singular worlds via portal technology e.g. Earth, Xen, but also worlds like Mars, Venus, and others outside our solar system using Earth as the staging point.

Fuck knows where Olympus is meant to be... our (Midgard's) dimension, maybe?

Thor's concern in the Avengers, that "it signals that Midgard is ready for a higher form of war", wasn't just that the aliens of our dimension (e.g. Thanos) would see Earth as a threat, but the various aliens of the Nine Realms' dimensions, too.

As for Dormammu and his domain (which has said to "swallow worlds"?), I think that's another alternate dimension that's under the control of one overlord, but it could be an extra-dimensional realm (e.g. outside of the known universes/dimensions) -- basically the area outside of the "box" that all the dimensions, parallel universes, and timelines are contained in.

Then again, as you said, that's one of the few MCU elements that has been inconsistent throughout the films.

 

[evilchumlee]

The Nine Realms, I think, are meant to be different dimensions, with key worlds (such as Earth/Midgard and Asgard) being the anchor stones for the Bifrost/Yggdrasill -- remember that before Odin went all peaceful, he was a conqueror along with Hela; it's likely he invaded those dimensions/universes from those worlds as staging points, and the Asgardian armies plundered/conquered hundreds of worlds across each of the nine dimensions.

[/QUOTE]

Initially, yes.

But then you can also just... hop on a starship and fly from Asgard to Earth.

I suppose it's not impossible that Marvel ships have the capability to do this... but that also seems to make the Bifrost somewhat pointless.

Everything about Thor has been retconned though. It was implicit early on that the Asgardians were NOT gods and did NOT use magic... and now it's implicit that they ARE gods and DO use magic. And the Bifrost is totally not the only way into Asgard. You can just... fly a ship. Works just as well. Bifrost is just... faster?

Thor's concern in the Avengers, that "it signals that Midgard is ready for a higher form of war", wasn't just that the aliens of our dimension (e.g. Thanos) would see Earth as a threat, but the various aliens of the Nine Realms' dimensions, too.

As for Dormammu and his domain (which has said to "swallow worlds"?), I think that's another alternate dimension that's under the control of one overlord, but it could be an extra-dimensional realm (e.g. outside of the known universes/dimensions) -- basically the area outside of the "box" that all the dimensions, parallel universes, and timelines are contained in.

Then again, as you said, that's one of the few MCU elements that has been inconsistent throughout the films.

Yeah I think there's just some nomenclature stuff.

A "universe" is exactly that, it's a universe. A universe can have multiple dimensions, "layers" associated with it.

Something Dormammu exists in "our" universe, just in a different layer. OR it's possible that some of these layers/dimensions exist as pocket universes accessible to the multiverse but I don't think so.

Although of note, Dr. Strange's use of the time crystal should have resulted in multiple branching timelines...

 

[Jormungandr]

Initially, yes.

But then you can also just... hop on a starship and fly from Asgard to Earth.

I suppose it's not impossible that Marvel ships have the capability to do this... but that also seems to make the Bifrost somewhat pointless.

Everything about Thor has been retconned though. It was implicit early on that the Asgardians were NOT gods and did NOT use magic... and now it's implicit that they ARE gods and DO use magic. And the Bifrost is totally not the only way into Asgard. You can just... fly a ship. Works just as well. Bifrost is just... faster?




Yeah I think there's just some nomenclature stuff.

A "universe" is exactly that, it's a universe. A universe can have multiple dimensions, "layers" associated with it.

Something Dormammu exists in "our" universe, just in a different layer. OR it's possible that some of these layers/dimensions exist as pocket universes accessible to the multiverse but I don't think so.

Although of note, Dr. Strange's use of the time crystal should have resulted in multiple branching timelines...
[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah, I forgot about the stupid "fly to Asgard" thing. That basically states that the Nine Realms are just planets in our dimension, not planets in parallel dimensions linked by the Bifrost, which was far more cooler and comic accurate.

In the MCU they were called gods, but they were basically using "technology so advanced that it was indistinguishable from magic"... hyper advanced aliens, basically.

But then Disney decided to be more comic accurate, which has the Asgardians, Olympians, and a ton of others as actual magical gods.

Just... sigh.

 

[evilchumlee]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the stupid "fly to Asgard" thing. That basically states that the Nine Realms are just planets in our dimension, not planets in parallel dimensions linked by the Bifrost, which was far more cooler and comic accurate.

I do like to step back and remember, it's based on comics... so a certain amount of ridiculous is to be expected.

I have a pet theory on Asgard specifically, that it IS another dimension... not universe... within 616. Due to Space Magic, it's not difficult to LEAVE Asgard... you can get in a ship and fly away and it's fine.

It's next to impossible to ENTER Asgard without the Bifrost. Otherwise the benefit of the Bifrost is just essentially instant travel to anywhere.

It still doesn't totally track with Thor 2, with the whole plot of Loki knowing a secret way out of Asgard... although, I can handwave it away to a point. To get out without the Bifrost or some other magical means, you need a ship. They didn't have a ship... so that wasn't an option.

ALSO possible that the "Nine Realms" are galaxies? FTL in Marvel seems to be quite fast, but we haven't seen anything go extra-galactic. The whole jump point thing might work outside of the Milky Way, so that's where the Bifrost was super important... both to get IN to Asgard and be able to travel across galaxies.

The convergence in Thor 2 was a big deal because it would have made travel between the realms "easy" and not require the Bifrost.

 

[Jormungandr]

I do like to step back and remember, it's based on comics... so a certain amount of ridiculous is to be expected.

I have a pet theory on Asgard specifically, that it IS another dimension... not universe... within 616. Due to Space Magic, it's not difficult to LEAVE Asgard... you can get in a ship and fly away and it's fine.

It's next to impossible to ENTER Asgard without the Bifrost. Otherwise the benefit of the Bifrost is just essentially instant travel to anywhere.

It still doesn't totally track with Thor 2, with the whole plot of Loki knowing a secret way out of Asgard... although, I can handwave it away to a point. To get out without the Bifrost or some other magical means, you need a ship. They didn't have a ship... so that wasn't an option.

ALSO possible that the "Nine Realms" are galaxies? FTL in Marvel seems to be quite fast, but we haven't seen anything go extra-galactic. The whole jump point thing might work outside of the Milky Way, so that's where the Bifrost was super important... both to get IN to Asgard and be able to travel across galaxies.

The convergence in Thor 2 was a big deal because it would have made travel between the realms "easy" and not require the Bifrost.

Unless there's something we missed, it looked like a conventional FTL sort of thing with that ship.

I'm a bit baffled that the writers made such inconsistencies and plot holes.

 

[Blasterbot]

Unless there's something we missed, it looked like a conventional FTL sort of thing with that ship.

I'm a bit baffled that the writers made such inconsistencies and plot holes.

I'm not. they don't care enough to keep it straight. Anyone who cares is just a toxic fan and they don't want your money or views. So I stopped giving money and views to their content machine.

 

[evilchumlee]

Unless there's something we missed, it looked like a conventional FTL sort of thing with that ship.

I'm a bit baffled that the writers made such inconsistencies and plot holes.

I think it was a conscious decision to move away from the idea of the different dimensions. It wasn't a mistake. Something more of a light retcon. Similar to say, SHIELD in Iron Man which was quite obviously a new organization, "We're working on the name". Later, it very much is not new. At all.

I was thinking alittle bit about magic and that might not be as much of an inconsistency as I thought. We do learn from Dr. Strange that magic is definitely real, but it's also... science. It's just another force that exists in the world that be studied and understood. In that case, Asgard is so powerful because they have mastered both technology and magic... to the point that many Asgardians don't really see much of a difference. In the MCU Magic is... physics. Once you understand how it works, it's pretty mundane. If you don't understand how it works it's... well... "magic".

 

[Captain X]

The upshot is that the MCU turned into the M-SHE-U after Disney purchased it and went back on their word to allow Ike Perlmutter and his Marvel Creative Committee to maintain creative control over the MCU and instead allowed Kevin Feige complete control, which is bragged about by them both in online articles and in the book “MCU: The Reign of Marvel Studios” by Joanna Robinson and others.

 

[Blasterbot]

on the Bright side nobody liked captain marvel so them making a shitty sequel doesn't really piss anyone off. just a shit movie that isn't for us so we don't need to waste time or money on it.