Racism and Wu

[DirtbagLeft]

Many of your colleagues are far less circumspect. You know the ones talking about we won't achieve racial reconciliation until all the white people are dead.

Understanding the sentiment and agreeing with the sentiment. Yes. It is true that we won't achieve racial reconciliation until all white people are dead. We will also not achieve racial conciliation until all back people are dead, all Asians, all etc. The people who say this however are absolute fucking morons because while I get that it expresses their frustration unless one is familiar with the intent of those words it consequentially does more harm than good to express ones frustration that way.

The intent is not genocide but the destruction of whiteness as a meme. Blackness as a meme. etc... Just like we will not achieve cultural advancement until the all Christians are dead. It's a true statement. It's something I deeply desire. And yet it completely frames my intended meaning out of context. In order for the last Christian to be dead does not necessitate genocide (something I am avidly against). What it necessitates is that no one living think of themselves as Christian. Genocide (an option off the table) is one possible means of achieving this goal. Another way of achieving this goal is to convince people that Christianity is not only factually wrong but an evil and morally bankrupt philosophy.

Actually being white was seen as distinct-even in America, where white skin was contrasted with blacks, Asians, and native americans. The idea of a pan white identity is present in the original birth of a nation. And in the works of race theorists in the early 20th and late 19th centuries.

you can try your historical revisionism but it wont work. Italians, Spaniards, Irish etc. were all excluded from the category of white in the past. White was restricted to Anglo-Saxon's in the early US. Would you like me to pull up the quote's about German's?

Even in the early 20th century-white people were themselves in a hierarchy-Nordics/anglo Saxons the best, French and eastern Europeans in the middle, Latins and emotional southern Europeans at the bottom.

Yes that was the 20th century understanding based on pseudo-science. Would you like to provide quotes as to why southern Europeans were inferior? Or would it expose the irrationality of the system?

Even so-the idea of a pan European identity has existed for at least 200 years. And arguably since early modern if not medieval times.

This is actually laughable. The Pan European myth didn't exist until the 1980's and it was manufactured by revisionists.

And yes there is a common "white" culture. It just so happened to be tagged as Anglo Saxon. In America. Irish and Italians were seen as distinct as late as the mid 20th century in some circles.

So the idea of white people having no distinct identity is just fucking nonsensical. It was just a complex identity with lots of variation.

So you are admitting that those who are not anglo-saxon are not white. As for the Irish and Italians being seen as distinct it wasn't just "some" ie a small fringe movement. The White Anglo Saxon Protestant's (WASP's) carried out on a large scale a propaganda campaign against the non-white invading Catholics. Anglo-Saxon is an identity white is a moving goal post.

 

[DirtbagLeft]

Yeah I can’t recall that exact views name but I know that I absolutely hated it when I had to study it. I’ve always thought Shakespeare put it best, that a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.

That would be a rather solipsistic view which I reject. Changing the name of a thing or the definition of a thing does not have any impact on reality. It does impact our perception of things that are real. You on the other hand believe that our perception of reality is the same as reality itself. It's not. Human perception is shit. It is however the only tool we have for the job so we make do. Insistence on a childishly simplistic view of reality does actually make reality fit your simplistic model. You made it clear in the Nazi thread that your feelings don't care about facts. I think that is insane but at least I can respect the honesty. Don't try to backpedal on that now.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Understanding the sentiment and agreeing with the sentiment. Yes. It is true that we won't achieve racial reconciliation until all white people are dead. We will also not achieve racial conciliation until all back people are dead, all Asians, all etc. The people who say this however are absolute fucking morons because while I get that it expresses their frustration unless one is familiar with the intent of those words it consequentially does more harm than good to express ones frustration that way.

The intent is not genocide but the destruction of whiteness as a meme. Blackness as a meme. etc... Just like we will not achieve cultural advancement until the all Christians are dead. It's a true statement. It's something I deeply desire. And yet it completely frames my intended meaning out of context. In order for the last Christian to be dead does not necessitate genocide (something I am avidly against). What it necessitates is that no one living think of themselves as Christian. Genocide (an option off the table) is one possible means of achieving this goal. Another way of achieving this goal is to convince people that Christianity is not only factually wrong but an evil and morally bankrupt philosophy.

you can try your historical revisionism but it wont work. Italians, Spaniards, Irish etc. were all excluded from the category of white in the past. White was restricted to Anglo-Saxon's in the early US. Would you like me to pull up the quote's about German's?

Yes that was the 20th century understanding based on pseudo-science. Would you like to provide quotes as to why southern Europeans were inferior? Or would it expose the irrationality of the system?

This is actually laughable. The Pan European myth didn't exist until the 1980's and it was manufactured by revisionists.


So you are admitting that those who are not anglo-saxon are not white. As for the Irish and Italians being seen as distinct it wasn't just "some" ie a small fringe movement. The White Anglo Saxon Protestant's (WASP's) carried out on a large scale a propaganda campaign against the non-white invading Catholics. Anglo-Saxon is an identity white is a moving goal post.

Okay so everyone is mixed? Or everyone is brainwashed into some neutral future identity? What a fucking glorious future!

They weren't considered American because America was considered a nation for Anglo Saxon protestants. If you had asked them-"who is better, the African in his jungle or the Italian?"-they'd have said the Italian 100/100 times. Even if they didn't like Italians.

from a non right wing source actually shows a lot of what I mean. Not to mention more recent authors like Lothrop Stoddard. Race and Identity in Medieval Europe – AAIHS

I'd argue it existed in some ways in the idea of Christendom.

There was a clear idea of Anglo Saxons as best. And in America this meant white.

 

[ShieldWife]

The myth of whiteness is not a thing. White does not exist in any ontic sense as is demonstrated by the shift in who is and is not considered white has changed over time. "Whites" unlike "blacks" share no common culture. Blacks are culturally distinct from Africans. There is no single monolithic white culture as much as WASP's love that lie.

Wow, that's really, dare I say it, racist.

Whites have no culture but blacks do? Not only is that a pretty blatant display of your hatred of whites, but it's absurd on its face. Are you talking about black and white people in the USA? Because outside of the US it's even more absurd. There isn't a single black or white culture, there is a general American culture that blacks and whites in the USA share and then numerous subculture, many of which are more strongly associated with some races than others.

Goths are an overwhelmingly white subculture, so are nerds, rednecks, and hippies. Yet there are blacks who are members of those subcultures. Inner city ghetto subculture is associated with blacks, but there are plenty of blacks who have nothing to do with it and some members of other races who are a part of that subculture. Some people are parts of several subcultures. I'm both a nerd and a conservative homeschooler, two different mostly white subcultures.

The thing about leftists is that they always set whites apart from all the other races. Whites are really special to them, special in how bad we are. The entire sociology word salad definition of racism is just an attempt to use sophistry to justify hating white people and scapegoating us for the world's problems.

 

[DirtbagLeft]

Basically it comes down to a belief that external reality is just some phantasms we can change by our will. If I want to say the deer is a horse, it is. If I believe the sun is green, then it becomes green.

Excellent. Now if only I actually believed that you would have a point. If you want to say a deer is a horse then a deer is a horse. True. The vibrations are what they are. If you attempted however to say that conceptually the two are equivalent then you would just be insane. The verbal token is irrelevant except insofar as it allows you to convey meaning to others.

That strawman of your's burns mighty fine doesn't it. Now if only you could actually come up with a counter to the actual positions I hold. But that is too much to expect from degenerates I guess.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Excellent. Now if only I actually believed that you would have a point. If you want to say a deer is a horse then a deer is a horse. True. The vibrations are what they are. If you attempted however to say that conceptually the two are equivalent then you would just be insane. The verbal token is irrelevant except insofar as it allows you to convey meaning to others.

That strawman of your's burns mighty fine doesn't it. Now if only you could actually come up with a counter to the actual positions I hold. But that is too much to expect from degenerates I guess.

Strange the only communists who use that word are tankies and Stalinists. I'd advise you look at the Terms of Service.

Wow, that's really, dare I say it, racist.

Whites have no culture but blacks do? Not only is that a pretty blatant display of your hatred of whites, but it's absurd on its face. Are you talking about black and white people in the USA? Because outside of the US it's even more absurd. There isn't a single black or white culture, there is a general American culture that blacks and whites in the USA share and then numerous subculture, many of which are more strongly associated with some races than others.

Goths are an overwhelmingly white subculture, so are nerds, rednecks, and hippies. Yet there are blacks who are members of those subcultures. Inner city ghetto subculture is associated with blacks, but there are plenty of blacks who have nothing to do with it and some members of other races who are a part of that subculture. Some people are parts of several subcultures. I'm both a nerd and a conservative homeschooler, two different mostly white subcultures.

The thing about leftists is that they always set whites apart from all the other races. Whites are really special to them, special in how bad we are. The entire sociology word salad definition of racism is just an attempt to use sophistry to justify hating white people and scapegoating us for the world's problems.

But but white doesn't exist. Him saying it has no ontological existence is a long way of saying white people should not exist.

 

[FriedCFour]

That would be a rather solipsistic view which I reject. Changing the name of a thing or the definition of a thing does not have any impact on reality. It does impact our perception of things that are real. You on the other hand believe that our perception of reality is the same as reality itself. It's not. Human perception is shit. It is however the only tool we have for the job so we make do. Insistence on a childishly simplistic view of reality does actually make reality fit your simplistic model. You made it clear in the Nazi thread that your feelings don't care about facts. I think that is insane but at least I can respect the honesty. Don't try to backpedal on that now.

This is fucking hilarious. I didn’t argue feelings in the Nazi thread. Literally my whole point of view is that I need evidence for shit for me to believe it. I want something actually observed and real and that we can point to as an example. All I did was bring up nothing but historical examples of different things and how they work with one another. You on the other hand use literally nothing observed in reality, you make up words and their definitions and then you say because I made up these words and then I talk around in a little circle without any actual observed evidence that means I’m right. Just actually fucking talk about real evidence for once.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Real evidence is oppressive and Eurocentric. We need to embrace other perspectives. Objectivity is so patriarchal, check your privilege Fried.

 

[FriedCFour]

Real evidence is oppressive and Eurocentric. We need to embrace other perspectives. Objectivity is so patriarchal, check your privilege Fried.

“Men and women are the same because these words and those words and that’s right.”
“No, clearly not because here’s these disparate cultures and peoples that follow similar observed patterns with roles for different sexes.”
“You just care about feelings not facts.”

I don’t get it.

 

[Abhorsen]

1) Racism is not the actions of people, but the term used to describe the systems of power wielded by institutions to suppress non whites.
Actually: Racism is examined not with regards to the action of a single individual, but instead used to describe a system of power and the differential between those who have it and those who do not along racial lines.

Again, this definition is crap. A basic definition of racism needs to at least include a single Klukker. If it doesn't, the definition is shit. Use common definitions of words, not arcane jargony ones.

Also, could you not double post? Generally if you have more to add, it is polite to edit your previous post and copy and paste what you wanted to add.

 

[FriedCFour]

Again, this definition is crap. A basic definition of racism needs to at least include a single Klukker. If it doesn't, the definition is shit. Use common definitions of words, not arcane jargony ones.

It’s the sheer arrogance. If you want to say you fight for the people and how you are all about the working class start by actually talking like them and not like an elitist sneering down on others because you memorize/google all these special little academic words to use to feel better than others who don’t know them, just to describe basic shit that can easily be said with normal words.

 

[Deleted member 88]

It’s the sheer arrogance. If you want to say you fight for the people and how you are all about the working class start by actually talking like them and not like an elitist sneering down on others because you memorize/google all these special little academic words to use to feel better than others who don’t know them, just to describe basic shit that can easily be said with normal words.

What an amazing idea! If only the left wing vanguard actually used real words and engaged with real people on real problems they might have not lost the working class fifty years ago.

 

[FriedCFour]

What an amazing idea! If only the left wing vanguard actually used real words and engaged with real people on real problems they might have not lost the working class fifty years.

Nah the working class just hates themselves. It’s all self hate. They’re all such stupid idiots that can’t think for themselves and need me to think for them because they are worthless trash who needs me to explain how to make their lives better because they are all just flyover redneck idiots who don’t know what’s good for them. But I do because I went to college and I read some books and learned all these cool little words and phrases so I know what they actually need and want, they just need to understand that and realize they are stupid idiots and I’m right and the best.

 

[Deleted member 88]

No its false consciousness. If only they stopped believing in God, family and country they would understand how our program is their salvation.

Its not our ideas, or even our pompous and contemptuous attitude towards them, its their stupidity and backwardness.

 

[DirtbagLeft]

Okay so everyone is mixed? Or everyone is brainwashed into some neutral future identity? What a fucking glorious future!

Did I say everyone is mixed? I don't think I even so much as implied as much. The haplogroups can remain intact and will remain in tact regardless of if the concept of "white" "black" etc exist. Distinct external features would continue to exist just like eye color, hair color, etc exist. The difference is that just like with Eyes, hair, etc they would simply exist as an interesting feature with no particular value outside of a personal asthetic.

They weren't considered American because America was considered a nation for Anglo Saxon protestants. If you had asked them-"who is better, the African in his jungle or the Italian?"-they'd have said the Italian 100/100 times. Even if they didn't like Italians.

this is to ignore history entirely. I understand that WASPs have worked really hard to rewrite history and are instant that the Dutch, Spanish, and French contributed only in minor ways to the development of the US. That's bullshit though as anyone who actually reads the founders knows.

from a non right wing source actually shows a lot of what I mean. Not to mention more recent authors like Lothrop Stoddard. Race and Identity in Medieval Europe – AAIHS

I'd argue it existed in some ways in the idea of Christendom.

There was a clear idea of Anglo Saxons as best. And in America this meant white.

Given that one of my degrees is in theology and I did my thesis paper on the development of the heritablity of sin I am very familiar with the content of that article. That same notion is also why nobles are so inbred. Theologically the difference between skin color is justified by the myth of the flood with Ham being the supposed father of all africans.

While the desire and notion of a Pan Christian Europe existed as far back as the 10th century (when Christianity can be said to truly start dominating Europe) Christianity was has always been a fractured religion with various competing sects dominating different regions and developing different cultural traditions. Prior to Trent what is today called The Latin Rite was only one of many western cultural traditions. Throughout most of the rest of the European Rites for example marriage and even polygamy were accepted. The European Crusades especially in central and Northern Europe prior to the reformation are clear and distinct evidence against a unified European culture with the Protestant Reformation only cementing the theological and cultural differences. Two particular movements which are related but distinct are the Franciscan movement and the Erasmusian movement. Francis was the precursor to Erasmus who was well on the way to actually moving Europe towards an eventual cultural unification prior to Luther's break with the Latin Church.

Language, dress, music, dance, political structures, social institutions, theology, traditions, and everything that makes a culture distinct varied widely throughout all of Europe. Theology, and theological history and the impact they had on the various regions is one of my areas of expertise and is one of the things I can speak about extensively with little to no prep time. I can read the hebrew of the OT the Greek of the NT and early fathers and Church Latin and do so on a regular basis even as a non-believer. You do not want to challenge me here because I will utterly and completely crush you. Church history with particular emphasis on European development is on my side in this.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Did I say everyone is mixed? I don't think I even so much as implied as much. The haplogroups can remain intact and will remain in tact regardless of if the concept of "white" "black" etc exist. Distinct external features would continue to exist just like eye color, hair color, etc exist. The difference is that just like with Eyes, hair, etc they would simply exist as an interesting feature with no particular value outside of a personal asthetic.

this is to ignore history entirely. I understand that WASPs have worked really hard to rewrite history and are instant that the Dutch, Spanish, and French contributed only in minor ways to the development of the US. That's bullshit though as anyone who actually reads the founders knows.

Given that one of my degrees is in theology and I did my thesis paper on the development of the heritablity of sin I am very familiar with the content of that article. That same notion is also why nobles are so inbred. Theologically the difference between skin color is justified by the myth of the flood with Ham being the supposed father of all africans.

While the desire and notion of a Pan Christian Europe existed as far back as the 10th century (when Christianity can be said to truly start dominating Europe) Christianity was has always been a fractured religion with various competing sects dominating different regions and developing different cultural traditions. Prior to Trent what is today called The Latin Rite was only one of many western cultural traditions. Throughout most of the rest of the European Rites for example marriage and even polygamy were accepted. The European Crusades especially in central and Northern Europe prior to the reformation are clear and distinct evidence against a unified European culture with the Protestant Reformation only cementing the theological and cultural differences. Two particular movements which are related but distinct are the Franciscan movement and the Erasmusian movement. Francis was the precursor to Erasmus who was well on the way to actually moving Europe towards an eventual cultural unification prior to Luther's break with the Latin Church.

Language, dress, music, dance, political structures, social institutions, theology, traditions, and everything that makes a culture distinct varied widely throughout all of Europe. Theology, and theological history and the impact they had on the various regions is one of my areas of expertise and is one of the things I can speak about extensively with little to no prep time. I can read the hebrew of the OT the Greek of the NT and early fathers and Church Latin and do so on a regular basis even as a non-believer. You do not want to challenge me here because I will utterly and completely crush you. Church history with particular emphasis on European development is on my side in this.

How wonderful. You mean like Star Trek or another color blind future? But I thought color blindness supported racism. A+ for shifting the goal posts.

No one said they didn't. My point is that racial hierarchies operated on a ladder. You would have struggled to find anyone who said Africans or Aborigines were superior than Italians or Greeks. They might not have liked and even opposed the immigration of the latter. But the ladder had Europeans on higher if not all the same rungs.

How on earth are the crusades evidence against a Christian identity? Your talking absurdities

Yes there were local varieties and national and tribal animosities-there were French men who fought for the Spanish kings in the Reconquista. So clearly a common identity mediated by a common enemy(Islam) existed. This is obvious.

The local churches had their own customs, but Papal authority was recognized everywhere except where the Orthodox Church held sway. Anything else was heretical. Or pagan remnants(such as the Baltic tribes). Your equalizing minor or trivial distinctions to make an argument which is false on its face-namely european(christian) identity wasn't real.

 

[FriedCFour]

@DirtbagLeft do all Muslims need to die for progress to be had?

 

[Deleted member]

@DirtbagLeft the point you seem to be intentionally ignoring is that transsexuality upholds gender norms that the left wants to tear down and is so ironically conservative; so transgenderism is a completely nonsensical concept separate from transsexuality which was created by the left to enforce ideological compliance. You yourself made statements—like the difficulty of getting surgery or that HRT is banned for children—which have been false for years thanks to a transgenderist ideology which denies dysphoria and biological mediated identification of transsexuality.

 

[Deleted member 88]

@DirtbagLeft do all Muslims need to die for progress to be had?

I mean they are just justifiably upset and downtrodden brown people so no.

That's not what he would say, but is what he thinks.

 

[DirtbagLeft]

Wow, that's really, dare I say it, racist.

If race abolitionism is racist then color me guilty and proudly. If a moron want's to call race abolition racism then it's more a statement about their own cognitive faculties than it is mine.

Whites have no culture but blacks do? Not only is that a pretty blatant display of your hatred of whites, but it's absurd on its face. Are you talking about black and white people in the USA? Because outside of the US it's even more absurd. There isn't a single black or white culture, there is a general American culture that blacks and whites in the USA share and then numerous subculture, many of which are more strongly associated with some races than others.[/qoute] Whites have no culture.

Culture: the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group. Culture is limited by geography and the ability for concepts, art, social customs etc to travel. Pre-modern culture was hampered primarily by long travel times which have been substantially shortened in modern times. The invention of the telegraph and radio radically altered cultural transmission rates. WASP culture is a thing white culture is not a thing. What makes black culture a thing is the manufacturing of a common culture brought about by a complete severing from their previous culture and the need to manufacture a new common identity from dispirit and distinct identities. Black culture exists in contrast to other cultures in Africa and shares nothing in common with any culture which previously existed or currently exists on the continent.

While there does not exist a "white" culture there does in some very vague sense exist a common American mythic narrative. While mythic narratives are crucial for the development of shared culture it would be inaccurate to call the existence of a narrative "culture" or even if we granted that it was culture to call it "white".

Goths are an overwhelmingly white subculture, so are nerds, rednecks, and hippies. Yet there are blacks who are members of those subcultures. Inner city ghetto subculture is associated with blacks, but there are plenty of blacks who have nothing to do with it and some members of other races who are a part of that subculture. Some people are parts of several subcultures. I'm both a nerd and a conservative homeschooler, two different mostly white subcultures.

And you are starting to get at the heart of the matter almost. Race is not culture. A particular race may or may not be correlative to a given culture or sub-culture but it is not causal or related in any meaningful way. Also membership in different cultural and sub-cultural groups is a complex web of interrelations. For example you and I as it turns out share a subculture. Nerd (Distinct from Geek fuck everyone very much for conflating he two).

Taking just Nerd culture it is extremely hard to pin down what exactly nerd culture is. Very very broadly speaking Nerd's like math and telescopes. That's a gross oversimplification. Does this mean everyone who likes math is a Nerd? no. Same with telescopes. And when you start getting into the nerd sub-cultures things get even more fucked. You have the hard fantasy (WoT) nerds who hate the SciFi nerds. The SciFi (Star Trek) nerds claim the hard fantasy nerds aren't nerds at all. Within the SciFi Nerds you have the Star Trek and the Star War's nerds which have distinct cultures. On the fantasy side of things you have the WoT nerds and the D&D nerds (which are different than the geek D&D nerds). Within the Star Wars Nerds you have the pre-prequel nerds, the prequel nerds, and the post-prequel nerds. This hasn't even touched the Dr. Who Nerds and the various controversies that have broken up that nerdom over the past sixty years. Then you have the crossover sub-cultures. Do all of these nerds or even entire nerd sub-cultures like math and telescopes? no. What is the defining characteristic of nerd and nerdom then? We value intelligence? generally true but again not universally true either on an individual level or on a subcultural level.

Cultures are cultural constructs. They exist because we say they do. Defining a culture is much harder than people like to pretend. And cultures which have lots of superficial similarities and get lumped together because of it can turn out to be radically different from one another. Black and white as racial terms are completely useless as is the concept of race all together. In terms of culture white is completely useless. Within the states American vaguely may hold some value if we acknowledge a shared mythic narrative and government holidays as a bare bones definition for culture. Black as a culture actually makes sense, though not if you attempt to impose skin color onto it. Attempting to define African cultures as black however is to break the term as a useful category. Also Black American culture and Black Cuban culture while both sharing the word black are again distinctly different and shouldn't be conflated.

The thing about leftists is that they always set whites apart from all the other races. Whites are really special to them, special in how bad we are. The entire sociology word salad definition of racism is just an attempt to use sophistry to justify hating white people and scapegoating us for the world's problems.

Most of us don't whites are like the Christian god. it's something that only exist in the minds of those who believe it. I want to see Yahweh die. This doesn't mean I secretly believe Yahweh exists. It means I want the concept of Yahweh as an active meme obliterated. I don't want the white meme obliterated because as much as some people are trying to force it into existence it doesn't exist quite just yet. I do want to however to see WASP culture obliterated and expunged from existence as the cancer that it is.

As to your accusation about attempting to scapegoat whites that is laughable and a gross strawman of what people on the left actually believe. It's a persecution narrative you tell yourself to justify your own beliefs. Colonialism has fucked over a lot of people. That the individuals who carried out the colonialism were white is trivial and accidental to the question of was it just and what if anything should be done to redress the consequences. The truth is you and yours are no better than the fucktard SJW and Wokescolds you claim to hate.

The fact that you continue to not engage with the arguments and spin the hell out of everything is telling. It must trigger the shit out of you that you are incapable of engaging my argument honestly and rationally and so have to fall back on emotions and claims of victimization.