Well, TBF, I do think that there is a moral distinction between these two invasions: The US invaded Iraq in part in order to spread freedom and democracy (something that Iraqis themselves apparently wanted when they previously rebelled against Saddam in 1991, at US encouragement) while the Russian invasion of Ukraine was in large part to secure Ukraine's human capital for Russia. The US invasion of Iraq was at least theoretically meant to also benefit Iraqis in a considerably larger way than the Russian invasion of Ukraine was. (Yes, Ukrainians would be better off economically as a part of Russia, but they'd also become less free, and in any case, unlike with the US and Iraq, Russia could have had open borders with Ukraine without any wars.)
Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion
- Thread starter Zachowon
- Start date
- Status
Well, TBF, I do think that there is a moral distinction between these two invasions: The US invaded Iraq in part in order to spread freedom and democracy (something that Iraqis themselves apparently wanted when they previously rebelled against Saddam in 1991, at US encouragement) while the Russian invasion of Ukraine was in large part to secure Ukraine's human capital for Russia. The US invasion of Iraq was at least theoretically meant to also benefit Iraqis in a considerably larger way than the Russian invasion of Ukraine was. (Yes, Ukrainians would be better off economically as a part of Russia, but they'd also become less free, and in any case, unlike with the US and Iraq, Russia could have had open borders with Ukraine without any wars.)
History Learner
Well-known member
What's interesting is this rationale was not used to justify the invasion in the lead up to it nor does it appear in the planning documents. Officially, it only occurred because Iraq presented a threat to the national security of the United States by having WMDs...sound familiar, given the Russian position on NATO membership for Ukraine and biolabs schtick from earlier this year?
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
Of course they do. They play a similar playbook except they're more free to do it how they like.
It's fine by me. Just the way it is with differences in opinions.
History Learner
Well-known member
Like I said, I get along fine with actual Ukrainians. My AFU friend was part of the offensive in Kharkov, I know a Ukrainian girl in Zaporozhye effectively living on the frontline, etc. The Western backers just strike me as too dishonest typically.
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
Who are these western backs you speak of?
History Learner
Well-known member
Typo, meant backers. I just meant Pro-Ukraine people in the West tend to try to strike this Black and White picture when the reality doesn't reflect that.
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
That one's real easy. They're not in Ukraine. To be fair I'm not in there either but I wouldn't want to be in a warzone so I can only listen to what the information peddlers have to say and filter out what is real or not with my own common sense.
As for them they can believe what they want. The rest is up to the actual participants to see it in their favor and make their outcome a reality.
But even that reality may prove cynical if their backers have something else in mind rather than what the winning participant wants.
History Learner
Well-known member
Exactly that; when you present the conflict as black or white, they stop analyzing the information objective or with common sense. This "Rape Kits with Viagra" was an obvious example, given their claim for months is that Russian soldiers aren't getting ammunition or food, but somehow they're getting penis pills? Like I said, it's just an insult to my and your intelligence.
Follow small Ukrainian Nationalist accounts on Twitter, the digital warfare between them and the NAFO types is something to see.
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
It's the evolution in propoganda warfare.
Wasn't that same accusation used in Libya?
History Learner
Well-known member
It's mostly just funny to me seeing Westerners running up into what actual Ukrainian Nationalists see and think. The NAFO picture of Ukraine is a land fighting for Gay Rights or whatever, and it's true the Maidan Government brought about the first pride parades to Ukraine after 2014. Actual Ukrainian Nationalists, meanwhile, got their Polish Far Right brothers to attack the gays at the Warsaw Pride event this year lol.
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
War makes strange bedfellows. After something's I've seen I can say it semi literally too.
History Learner
Well-known member
Some interesting examples are the head of Wagner complimenting their Ukrainian foes at Bakhmut for being excellent foes, given they are fellow Slavs and thus excellent warriors. Meanwhile one of Zelensky's main advisers did an interview and specifically said if Russia wins 500,000 AFU soldiers will join the 2.5 million strong Russian Army and reconquer the Warsaw Pact. They say these things while they're committing war crimes on each other every day lol.
There's the healthy respect for the enemy they both exhibit there, which I find lacking in the Western Pro-Ukrainian types or the like. Certainly us on the Pro-Russian side, have had to eat our words from earlier in the war, given the unexpected resilience of the AFU.
Last edited:
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
I'm sure we'll see more surprises in store at the conclusion.
History Learner
Well-known member
You're not wrong; Russian contacts/friends keep sending me random Confederate flag pictures (Joke playing on the Novorossiya flag), meanwhile Ukrainian propaganda at the trench level has things like "Ukraine to the Urals" floating around. Eastern Europe is a magical place lol.
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
One of these days I bet I'm going to see a scarred rainbow flag in the textbooks.
mrttao
Well-known member
which is why it is critically important for globohomo agenda that as many of them die as possible in the war.
shifting the demographics from conservative to liberal
not the first time it was done
History Learner
Well-known member
There are openly Gay Ukrainian volunteer formations and Antifa types on their side, so it's possible. Meanwhile Carpathian Sich guys quietly just kill them when they get the chance lol.
History Learner
Well-known member
Indeed, and this is one of the reasons why I've taken a Pro-Russia stance. I get Pro Ukraine Leftists, because at least that tends to have a cohesive world view, but Western Conservatives/Rightists doing so makes no sense unless they're a Boomer unwilling to move past the Cold War. The litmus test for me was, why are Hillary Clinton, George Soros, etc all backing Ukraine and against Russia? I've never seen a plausible argument against that, and was all I needed to see for bias confirmation in of itself.
If the people who hate me and want my demise are supporting something, and putting a lot of money into it too, then it is only natural to take the opposite side to fuck with them.
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
I thought the idea of rainbow flags being used in war as ironically funny but I may just regret it if the monkey paw through the people in power in the west supports it.
History Learner
Well-known member
Just be glad the heyday of Syria is over, that one was extremely confusing kek, but I digress.
- Status