Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

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mrttao

Well-known member
But you see X.
It is a globalist war and mighty trad and based Russia is fighting that!!!!
Nice strawman. but look back at the actual dialog and you get this:

Nobody in this argument was saying "Putin is a good guy"
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
See what? How do you expect me to track it?
The tech cartels and MSM work double time to memory hole all the biden crimes.
I can't just meditate hard to get information out of the aether.

I explicitly asked you to tell me what happened in mexico because I actually DO in fact care.
Anyways, thank you for the links. I will add mexico crimes to the growing list

And yes, I am in fact more concerned about biden crimes in mexico than ukraine. because it is right across the border. Wouldn't surprise me if bidens are involved in the recent spate of cartel action in the USA side of the border

But your position of "if you do not help memory hole biden crimes in ukraine then you are a traitor vatnik who supports putin and also do not care about biden's crimes in mexico" is just frankly absurd.
Don't blame the big tech, where the fuck do you think i found that, one of my links is a mainstream news site.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
This does seem to be the fundamental issue, doesn't it? Many on the Right, possessed by a cynicism that blossomed during Covid, can only see this through the prism of "globalists trying to control the world" (an amusing reversal of how the left can only see the world in terms of race and power structures) instead of what this actually is: the Ukrainian War of Independence.

Trouble is, if they accepted that premise, they'd have to conclude this has been centuries in the making and doesn't much correspond to ramblings about the WEF. Do that and then the Ukrainian cause becomes oddly sympathetic.

I abscribe most of it to just being fucking exausted.

America went through a similar anti interventionist phase during the vietnam war, and its not just the right you got plenty on the left that feel the same way. Then you do have the covid bullshit which honestly just burned out a whole lot of peoples remaining trust for the left and insitutions in general and you left with a lot of people who are not going to be willing to sacerfice much for people who are not our allies, are not in Nato, and who don't even live in the same hemisphere as us.

And this doesn't even get into the fact that the american people have been sacerficing for others for generations now. Globalization was us the american people sacerficing economic stuff to stop the russians. But the soviet union died 30 plus years ago and america has been sacerficing for a system that doesn't recipocate anything.

Most people here have the atitude we have sacerficed enough.
 

AmosTrask

Well-known member
And this doesn't even get into the fact that the american people have been sacerficing for others for generations now. Globalization was us the american people sacerficing economic stuff to stop the russians. But the soviet union died 30 plus years ago and america has been sacerficing for a system that doesn't recipocate anything.

Most people here have the atitude we have sacerficed enough.
The USA decided as a people that it is their Manifest Destiny to rule as the global Hegemon and sole remaining Superpower. The problem amigo is that if you stop ruling Russia was moving in. Or more accurately the Chinese will bluff their way in and fuck over everyone. Including the USA. You think hiding your head in the sand keeps the Commies away? Isolationism only leads to two outcomes. Slave or Master. You need to decide which of those two you want to be.

I'll give you a hint. Being on the Slave side of the aisle is shit. At least with the USA in charge shit like the atrocities in Ukraine and Xinjiang weren't happening to us. We've seen where the Commies and Nazies lead to Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot made sure of that. The USA sits firmly on the Laissez-faire side for Global Hegemon.
 

AnimalNoodles

Well-known member
The USA decided as a people that it is their Manifest Destiny to rule as the global Hegemon and sole remaining Superpower. The problem amigo is that if you stop ruling Russia was moving in. Or more accurately the Chinese will bluff their way in and fuck over everyone. Including the USA. You think hiding your head in the sand keeps the Commies away? Isolationism only leads to two outcomes. Slave or Master. You need to decide which of those two you want to be.

I'll give you a hint. Being on the Slave side of the aisle is shit. At least with the USA in charge shit like the atrocities in Ukraine and Xinjiang weren't happening to us. We've seen where the Commies and Nazies lead to Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot made sure of that. The USA sits firmly on the Laissez-faire side for Global Hegemon.

The USA is giving us trannies, CRT and infinity immigration in exchange for what really?
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
The USA decided as a people that it is their Manifest Destiny to rule as the global Hegemon and sole remaining Superpower. The problem amigo is that if you stop ruling Russia was moving in. Or more accurately the Chinese will bluff their way in and fuck over everyone. Including the USA. You think hiding your head in the sand keeps the Commies away? Isolationism only leads to two outcomes. Slave or Master. You need to decide which of those two you want to be.

I'll give you a hint. Being on the Slave side of the aisle is shit. At least with the USA in charge shit like the atrocities in Ukraine and Xinjiang weren't happening to us. We've seen where the Commies and Nazies lead to Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot made sure of that. The USA sits firmly on the Laissez-faire side for Global Hegemon.
I understand the isolationist desire and the exhaustion with 'foreign conflicts' that people like Cherico express, I truly do.

However, the invasion of Ukraine has proven exactly why it doesn't work; other countries and their agendas/imperialist ambitions don't just disappear because the US public is angry and cynical about our own domestic situation. And using Chernobyl as an armor corridor and the massacres in areas's of Ukraine that Russian forces and their friends have been in temporary control of...all of it has shown Russia cannot be allowed to continue with it's imperial ambitions or allowed to keep the lands they have illegally occupied since ~1945 to present.

And for good or ill we will never be fully 'de-globalized', except in disaster or myopic scenarios that are frankly just as bad for humanity as a species as communism has proven to be, or could be even worse in the extinction-leaning direction.

Deal with the global situation and it's domestic implications as they are, not as they might be in a fairy-tale de-globalized world.

Fucking, you want money for what is happening, invest in 152mm and 155mm shell and explosive makers or fucking Raytheon; no one ever complained about having 'too many' medium caliber wide-use shells and missiles for every purpose under the sun.
 

AmosTrask

Well-known member
The USA is giving us trannies, CRT and infinity immigration in exchange for what really?
China would own the Pacific. Pinoys would slowly go extinct as they massacre us and we try to fight back. Vietnam would be in a Sino-China War number 3000. The West looks on and pretend it's not happening. Russia owns Europe and competes violently with China for everything outside North America. The USA and Canada fighting together to keep the Americas in their sphere out of desperation and prevent a Neo-Soviet and Neo-Ming from getting a strong foothold to invade.

@Bacle I have. Raytheon and BAE Systems is usually a safe investment. I haven't lost money yet investing in NATO owned arms companies.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
China would own the Pacific. Pinoys would slowly go extinct as they massacre us and we try to fight back. Vietnam would be in a Sino-China War number 3000. The West looks on and pretend it's not happening. Russia owns Europe and competes violently with China for everything outside North America. The USA and Canada fighting together to keep the Americas in their sphere out of desperation and prevent a Neo-Soviet and Neo-Ming from getting a strong foothold to invade.
USA literally saved russia from europe
And china wouldn't have even been able to industrialize without the USA
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
No, it didn't.
If they USA did nothing, russia would still not be the slightest threat to the usa

How exactly does "a war happened halfway around the world" prove isolationism does not work?

You see, this here is exactly where isolationist thinking goes wrong, because it only thinks in the 'right now.'

Does Russia taking control of Ukraine threaten the US?

Only a little bit, and that's economically. It's a much bigger threat to Europe, but again, that's not a direct threat to the US.

What about when Poland is next?

No, it's only a modest economic threat, no major threat overall. Poland is even less important to the US economy.

Moldova? Romania? Latvia? Estonia? Lithuania?

None of those are that big a deal to America either, economically or militarily, but at this point, Russia has just about finished reconsolidating the Soviet Union.

And then Germany is next.

And at that point, it is a big damned deal, because if Germany falls, then either Russia will get all of Europe, or we're going to have WWIII. And we really, really do not want either of these outcome. More, the price of stopping Russia is a lot steeper now, because now the Russians have the (depreciated but still present) economic and military power of all the nations they've absorbed behind them, even if they get shit on like the people in Donetsk and Luhansk are right now.

No, instead it is much, much better to just give money, munitions, and material to the Ukrainians to stop all of this now.

To use the tired old WWII analogy, imagine if instead of declaring war when Poland was invaded, and doing shit-all to actually stop the Germans, the allied powers had denied Germany the sudetenland, and because they didn't want to actually fight another war due to scars from WWI, had just funded the Czech war effort when Germany tried to invade to take it anyways.


TL;DR: It isn't just about Ukraine, it's about the precedent it sets, and whether or not the great powers of the world will let things devolve into another round of Cold War.
 

AnimalNoodles

Well-known member
China would own the Pacific. Pinoys would slowly go extinct as they massacre us and we try to fight back. Vietnam would be in a Sino-China War number 3000. The West looks on and pretend it's not happening. Russia owns Europe and competes violently with China for everything outside North America. The USA and Canada fighting together to keep the Americas in their sphere out of desperation and prevent a Neo-Soviet and Neo-Ming from getting a strong foothold to invade.

@Bacle I have. Raytheon and BAE Systems is usually a safe investment. I haven't lost money yet investing in NATO owned arms companies.

None of that makes any sense.

The American Empire, since 2001 at least has been insane. Its degenerate elites openly despise western culture, its peoples and its faith and openly seek their destruction. They are malicious, greedy and utterly without merit.

And the American people (along with the rest of the anglosphere) are the ones who suffer the worst under this horror show of spiteful mutants and resentful plutocrats. Anything that defeats it or discredits it puts the American people one step closer to their own liberation.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
The USA decided as a people that it is their Manifest Destiny to rule as the global Hegemon and sole remaining Superpower. The problem amigo is that if you stop ruling Russia was moving in. Or more accurately the Chinese will bluff their way in and fuck over everyone. Including the USA. You think hiding your head in the sand keeps the Commies away? Isolationism only leads to two outcomes. Slave or Master. You need to decide which of those two you want to be.

I'll give you a hint. Being on the Slave side of the aisle is shit. At least with the USA in charge shit like the atrocities in Ukraine and Xinjiang weren't happening to us. We've seen where the Commies and Nazies lead to Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot made sure of that. The USA sits firmly on the Laissez-faire side for Global Hegemon.
That is the main complication of the whole question of world power and hegemony. It's not that if USA goes isolationist and stops doing all the stuff that ires all the "anti-colonialists" and other more and less thinly veiled leftists, suddenly an age of peace and prosperity will happen.
Nature abhors a vacuum, a power vacuum most of all, and i for one want the "burden" of hegemony to be held by someone who will have at least some internal pressure to not abuse it too much. We know that there are places who will more than happily up take this "burden" as soon as it is abandoned, and they sure as hell don't plan to hold back if they get it.
No wonder they have always supported factions in the West who advocate isolationism and pacifism.

You see, this here is exactly where isolationist thinking goes wrong, because it only thinks in the 'right now.'

Does Russia taking control of Ukraine threaten the US?

Only a little bit, and that's economically. It's a much bigger threat to Europe, but again, that's not a direct threat to the US.

What about when Poland is next?

No, it's only a modest economic threat, no major threat overall. Poland is even less important to the US economy.

Moldova? Romania? Latvia? Estonia? Lithuania?

None of those are that big a deal to America either, economically or militarily, but at this point, Russia has just about finished reconsolidating the Soviet Union.

And then Germany is next.

And at that point, it is a big damned deal, because if Germany falls, then either Russia will get all of Europe, or we're going to have WWIII. And we really, really do not want either of these outcome. More, the price of stopping Russia is a lot steeper now, because now the Russians have the (depreciated but still present) economic and military power of all the nations they've absorbed behind them, even if they get shit on like the people in Donetsk and Luhansk are right now.

No, instead it is much, much better to just give money, munitions, and material to the Ukrainians to stop all of this now.

To use the tired old WWII analogy, imagine if instead of declaring war when Poland was invaded, and doing shit-all to actually stop the Germans, the allied powers had denied Germany the sudetenland, and because they didn't want to actually fight another war due to scars from WWI, had just funded the Czech war effort when Germany tried to invade to take it anyways.


TL;DR: It isn't just about Ukraine, it's about the precedent it sets, and whether or not the great powers of the world will let things devolve into another round of Cold War.
Cold War 2 is frankly far from the worst ways of where things could go from there.
Long story short, there is a good chance that if all the more and less aspiring great powers of the world and everyone with a long held grudge realizes that for all the whining by the chattering classes, a washed out former great power with delusions of grandeur and GDP of Italy at 2.5x the population can go full 19th century on Europe and not much will happen to it from the side of western "powers" besides screeching, how the fuck are they any worse and cannot do the same? Let the floodgates open, and let all the grudges, ambitions, unfinished business and age old spats be settled.

I'd like to remind everyone that everyone and their dog aren't churning out NBC weapons of all types like mad due to the above international order of countries not being allowed to go full 4X and get away with it being at least somewhat upheld, not because it's hard, expensive or some cucked green idiots are in charge. Even a turborpoor hellhole like North Korea could do it with some trying, common modern commercial technology makes it far easier than it was in the 1940's.
Some may be deep enough into isolationist fantasies may not even care at first, but eventually one nuclear or biological war in the right region will cause enough pain to US economy for them to start caring, but then it will be way too late to solve the problem cheaply or easily.
For now, USA, nevermind the western world, are spending less than they spend on fucking green bullshit, and i mean not even a quarter as much on it, which is one of reasons why i approach all the whining about the aid to Ukraine with suspicion, which is reliably confirmed as them being either some kind of pacifist or fringe ideologue who for this or that reason wants to merely make a point about something loosely related or openly sympathizes with Russia to own X or Y.
 
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King Arts

Well-known member
You see, this here is exactly where isolationist thinking goes wrong, because it only thinks in the 'right now.'

Does Russia taking control of Ukraine threaten the US?

Only a little bit, and that's economically. It's a much bigger threat to Europe, but again, that's not a direct threat to the US.

What about when Poland is next?

No, it's only a modest economic threat, no major threat overall. Poland is even less important to the US economy.

Moldova? Romania? Latvia? Estonia? Lithuania?

None of those are that big a deal to America either, economically or militarily, but at this point, Russia has just about finished reconsolidating the Soviet Union.

And then Germany is next.

And at that point, it is a big damned deal, because if Germany falls, then either Russia will get all of Europe, or we're going to have WWIII. And we really, really do not want either of these outcome. More, the price of stopping Russia is a lot steeper now, because now the Russians have the (depreciated but still present) economic and military power of all the nations they've absorbed behind them, even if they get shit on like the people in Donetsk and Luhansk are right now.

No, instead it is much, much better to just give money, munitions, and material to the Ukrainians to stop all of this now.

To use the tired old WWII analogy, imagine if instead of declaring war when Poland was invaded, and doing shit-all to actually stop the Germans, the allied powers had denied Germany the sudetenland, and because they didn't want to actually fight another war due to scars from WWI, had just funded the Czech war effort when Germany tried to invade to take it anyways.


TL;DR: It isn't just about Ukraine, it's about the precedent it sets, and whether or not the great powers of the world will let things devolve into another round of Cold War.
Or to use a ww2 analogy we could just watch Germany Russia, France and England kill themselves. Because guess what the only things that can threaten America is on the new world or nukes otherwise as long as we ban business from making deals with foreign nations like ww1 then our economy also won’t get tied to others and hurt when they fall. Because guess what the US has almost never fought a war where it was pure self defense of its own people it’s going to help others.
 

Marduk

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Or to use a ww2 analogy we could just watch Germany Russia, France and England kill themselves. Because guess what the only things that can threaten America is on the new world or nukes otherwise as long as we ban business from making deals with foreign nations like ww1 then our economy also won’t get tied to others and hurt when they fall. Because guess what the US has almost never fought a war where it was pure self defense of its own people it’s going to help others.
Big brain idea right there - we will be immune from world wars ruining global markets and causing an economic crash if we cause an economic crash by going full Sakoku voluntarily first :D
 

AmosTrask

Well-known member
Or to use a ww2 analogy we could just watch Germany Russia, France and England kill themselves. Because guess what the only things that can threaten America is on the new world or nukes otherwise as long as we ban business from making deals with foreign nations like ww1 then our economy also won’t get tied to others and hurt when they fall. Because guess what the US has almost never fought a war where it was pure self defense of its own people it’s going to help others.
You don't know a single thing about economics and how nations create wealth at all do you? This is why removing mandatory economy and fiscal management in secondary schools were a horrid educational reform for most Western nations. Magnificent tool for the upper classes though.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Big brain idea right there - we will be immune from world wars ruining global markets and causing an economic crash if we cause an economic crash by going full Sakoku voluntarily first :D

You don't know a single thing about economics and how nations create wealth at all do you? This is why removing mandatory economy and fiscal management in secondary schools were a horrid educational reform for most Western nations. Magnificent tool for the upper classes though.
Obviously to make my argument silly you can go for most extreme option. But if we made a law that restricted the ammount of money US citizens are allowed to invest in foreigners it would still allow growth without making us dependant. The reason we were in ww1 was because the banks were loaning a lot of money to the english and french and if they lost they would not be able to repay us. How else would we prevent US involvement in WW1?
 

Marduk

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Obviously to make my argument silly you can go for most extreme option. But if we made a law that restricted the ammount of money US citizens are allowed to invest in foreigners it would still allow growth without making us dependant. The reason we were in ww1 was because the banks were loaning a lot of money to the english and french and if they lost they would not be able to repay us. How else would we prevent US involvement in WW1?
Umm, that's not how economic dependency on international trade works, great idea to get some millionaires to shop around for different citizenship though.
It's not 1910's anymore, different times, different economies.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Umm, that's not how economic dependency on international trade works, great idea to get some millionaires to shop around for different citizenship though.
It's not 1910's anymore, different times, different economies.
Then why was America so keen on England and France winning? What were we dependent on?
 

Marduk

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Moderator
Staff Member
Then why was America so keen on England and France winning? What were we dependent on?
What language are you writing this in? There's your answer. You can't ignore the European, and particularly English heritage of America and deny the political and cultural connection.

Also there are geostrategic considerations. If one wannabe empire in Europe succeeds in conquering as much Europe as it wants (which tends to be most of it), then America will have a problem, which it would rather not have, and is far cheaper and easier to prevent than deal with only once it's necessary.
 
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