Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[ThatZenoGuy]

size is similar too. (bolters are 28mm. which is a little smaller. but still huge)

1.1-inch/75-caliber gun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bolters are mostly 19mm, with only some models being larger (IIRC heavy bolters and some obscure ones of great size).

 

[AmosTrask]

Jesu Cristo! The Russians are now down to using the T-54. No modifications, no upgrades, just the stock T-54. Everything can kill it! Even modern sniper rifles can mission kill that paper can! It's guns are too short ranged and unreliable at penetrating modern IFV much less an MBT! It's only dangerous to infantry and non-upgraded APCs!

Hahahaha! Die you Russian pigs! Die in fire!

 

[Morphic Tide]

they waste a bunch of energy on accelerating an acceleration mechanism (the rocket fuel and nozzles)

Mostly, it's going to be about the balance of space in the cartridge and available barrel length, as rocket propulsion outside the platform is much less restrictive than propellant burn inside a gun and can maintain projectile velocity at longer ranges. For current engineering, this is farcical because the startup is too unstable and the ranges in question are pure missile range, but for Imperial schizotech one can easily say they just do not know how to do the balancing "from scratch" anymore and so "jump" from conventional stubbers and autocannons to bolters instead of having remotely economical large-caliber rifles or small-scale rockets.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Jesu Cristo! The Russians are now down to using the T-54. No modifications, no upgrades, just the stock T-54. Everything can kill it! Even modern sniper rifles can mission kill that paper can! It's guns are too short ranged and unreliable at penetrating modern IFV much less an MBT! It's only dangerous to infantry and non-upgraded APCs!

Hahahaha! Die you Russian pigs! Die in fire!

T-54 even with WW2 munitions will punch a hole straight through any IFV like it was butter, don't underestimate a 100mm cannon. IFV's are uparmored to handle 30mm cannons with half the penetration of even primitive 100mm projectiles.
Won't penetrate a modern MBT frontally at any range, but it can do the job on the side of some tanks, mostly at flat angles and closer ranges.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Oh, boy, this again..

Well, it is not like the Poles weren't trying to conquer parts of Kievan Rus and it's successor states and Russia proper whenever they got the chance or anything.

Well, we can start at the beginning. . .

First Lithuanian-Muscovite War: Russian aggression, in pursuit of Ivan III's self-proclaimed claim to the entire territory of the fallen Byzantine Empire.​

​

Second Lithuanian-Muscovite War: Russian aggression, Ivan III again.​

​

Third Lithuanian-Muscovite War: Russian aggression yet again, Ivan III's son tries to conquer Poland after his illegitimate bid for the Polish throne was rejected.​

Russian aggression against Poland literally predates Russia as we know it; the "Russians" at this point were merely the Grand Duchy of Moscow, and had no actual legitimate claim to any of Kievan Rus in the first place since they were not any sort of legitimate successor government to the Varangians of the Rurik Dynasty.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

You know what pisses me off majorly about this war?
It's has-
A: Made surplus way the fuck harder to get

And more importantly-
B: Has made the War Thunder devs turn the "OOOORAHHHHHH PROPAGANDA" knob to the max, we're past 11 at this point and heading straight into LUDICROUS PROPAGANDA. Like seriously since the war has begun, russian bias in the game has been in higher and higher amounts.

 

[Tiamat]

T-54 even with WW2 munitions will punch a hole straight through any IFV like it was butter, don't underestimate a 100mm cannon. IFV's are uparmored to handle 30mm cannons with half the penetration of even primitive 100mm projectiles.
Won't penetrate a modern MBT frontally at any range, but it can do the job on the side of some tanks, mostly at flat angles and closer ranges.

Of course with the caveat that the T54 and T55, unless given a do-over and upgrade, lack the modern optical equipment, night vision, thermal vision, commanders independent thermal viewer (CITV), and some other accessories common on modern MBTs.

It can still certainly kill some vehicles, but it has to see the target first.

EDIT: Some later versions of the T55, as it was produced until 1981 eventually got some upgrades such as night vision for the crew and a laser rangefinder, but against current MBT's and IFV's this equipment is severely outdated.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Of course with the caveat that the T54 and T55, unless given a do-over and upgrade, lack the modern optical equipment, night vision, thermal vision, commanders independent thermal viewer (CITV), and some other accessories common on modern MBTs.

It can still certainly kill some vehicles, but it has to see the target first.

Oh, in that regard yes a T-55 is completely and utterly fucked.

 

[Jormungandr]

The T-54/55's are basically glass cannons against IFV's and the lighter "tanks" (such as those the UK donated) Ukraine is currently fielding: Against the more modern MBT's, even upgraded Soviet stock, though? Yeah, it ain't gonna be pretty for the T-54/T-55's.

 

[mrttao]

Of course with the caveat that the T54 and T55, unless given a do-over and upgrade, lack the modern optical equipment, night vision, thermal vision, commanders independent thermal viewer (CITV), and some other accessories common on modern MBTs.

It can still certainly kill some vehicles, but it has to see the target first.

Well, I looked up that tank and wikipedia (I know, I am sorry) says those still in service got upgraded over the years with wide array of upgrades.

where is russia even finding WW2 era ones that never received any upgrades since WW2?

do we have a source on russia deploying those WW2 unupgraded versions? as far as I can tell, some guy here just stated as such.

The T-54/55's are basically glass cannons against IFV's and the lighter "tanks" (such as those the UK donated) Ukraine is currently fielding: Against the more modern MBT's, even upgraded Soviet stock, though? Yeah, it ain't gonna be pretty for the T-54/T-55's.

Glass cannons certainly fits their "drown them in numbers" model of warfare.

 

[Tiamat]

T55 doesn’t have laser rangefinder either, something taken for granted on modern MBTs and some IFVs as well. No ERA protection either.

EDIT: They did though put a laser rangefinder on some later versions, designated T-55A in 1974.

I would like to think they’ll try to fit what modern equipment they can on these tanks, like what they’ve been trying to do with the T62s they’ve been pulling out of storage? But these things have been sitting rusting in mothballs for so long they have to look over and probably rebuild a lot on these hulls depending on their condition. The engines, transmission, fuel lines, o-rings and seals, make damn sure the fuel tanks aren’t contaminated, check for excessive rust on any moving parts including sprockets, the turret ring, etc. ☹️

The T55 was actually a pretty good tank for its time…but now? I pity the poor bastards getting stuck with these.

 

[Tiamat]

Well, I looked up that tank and wikipedia (I know, I am sorry) says those still in service got upgraded over the years with wide array of upgrades.

where is russia even finding WW2 era ones that never received any upgrades since WW2?

do we have a source on russia deploying those WW2 unupgraded versions? as far as I can tell, some guy here just stated as such.

Glass cannons certainly fits their "drown them in numbers" model of warfare.

To be fair the T54 and T55 are technically post-WW2 era vehicles, but not by far, the first production models rolled off around 1948 or so.

A lot of countries have kept around and modernized T55s they’ve had over the decades to varying degrees with various add-ons, kits, etc, the Israelis among them, and there is or at least was a fairly big cottage industry around that, partly because so many of the tanks were made they could be found practically everywhere at some point and in some places still are.

Don’t forget though the Russians never threw anything away and always believed in keeping anything that could still relatively go boom in storage for a rainy day. At least up to the end of the cold war and later the Russians were said to still have fleets of T34/85 tanks in storage in the Ural Mountains. 😳

Edit: Just to avoid confusion for those who don’t know, T34/85 is the later ww2 era variant of the T34 with the 85mm high velocity gun designed to take on the later heavy Wehrmacht tanks like the Panther and Tiger.

Another Edit, damn my memory: The Soviets actually did a fair number of upgrades over the years, as you mentioned, eventually adding a laser rangefinder, night vision for the crew and a few other modernizations such as attachments for ERA as the tank was in production until 1981(!). Even so, these tanks would probably not fare well against modern designs.

 

[Jormungandr]

Well, I looked up that tank and wikipedia (I know, I am sorry) says those still in service got upgraded over the years with wide array of upgrades.

where is russia even finding WW2 era ones that never received any upgrades since WW2?

do we have a source on russia deploying those WW2 unupgraded versions? as far as I can tell, some guy here just stated as such.

Glass cannons certainly fits their "drown them in numbers" model of warfare.

I can't post the source because it randomly showed up in my phone's news feed, but there were pictures of a Russian railcar transporting unmodified T-55's (as in no external modifications at all) with the same headline.

 

[Agent23]

Well, we can start at the beginning. . .

First Lithuanian-Muscovite War: Russian aggression, in pursuit of Ivan III's self-proclaimed claim to the entire territory of the fallen Byzantine Empire.


Second Lithuanian-Muscovite War: Russian aggression, Ivan III again.


Third Lithuanian-Muscovite War: Russian aggression yet again, Ivan III's son tries to conquer Poland after his illegitimate bid for the Polish throne was rejected.​

Russian aggression against Poland literally predates Russia as we know it; the "Russians" at this point were merely the Grand Duchy of Moscow, and had no actual legitimate claim to any of Kievan Rus in the first place since they were not any sort of legitimate successor government to the Varangians of the Rurik Dynasty.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boles%C5%82aw_I's_intervention_in_the_Kievan_succession_crisis

Uh, huh.

Again, you are evading the real question, what does modern day Russia gain by invading modern day Poland?

 

[Agent23]

Bolters "work" because they deliver explosive or incendiary payloads. Those are not allowed at the moment.

So just call it an automatic mini-rocket launcher to get around the various conventions, easy as.

 

[Cherico]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boles%C5%82aw_I's_intervention_in_the_Kievan_succession_crisis

Uh, huh.

Again, you are evading the real question, what does modern day Russia gain by invading modern day Poland?

Well if they conqure up to the vistula river they have more defendable boarders, warm water ports that are open all year long and have an easier time breaking out of the baltic sea.

 

[Agent23]

Well if they conqure up to the vistula river they have more defendable boarders, warm water ports that are open all year long and have an easier time breaking out of the baltic sea.

You do realize they have the largest fleet of nuclear icebreakers, access to the black sea and very good relations with Turkey as compared to the average, right?

They also have Crimea and probably Odessa too, and non-sew transport had improved markedly over the years, as have laws guaranteeing freedom of navigation.

Your only real point here is the buffer, but that is what Ukraine and Belarus were before the west started pushing in.

Next!

 

[Batrix2070]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boles%C5%82aw_I's_intervention_in_the_Kievan_succession_crisis

Uh, huh.

Again, you are evading the real question, what does modern day Russia gain by invading modern day Poland?

Well, you can see for yourself, Poland went to change the ruler of Rus, it did not try to snatch lands from it, except for the important Czerwienskie castles. The country from which we wanted to snatch lands was Germany, and those lands we wanted to take were Polabia, which is today's East Germany.

Where is yours here, Poland tried to conquer Kievan Rus? Poland was in no way interested in conquering it. If she was interested, she would have just done it, because it was easier than wars with the Empire.

Poland going east was not until the fourteenth century, Kazimierz III the Great. And even then, the conquest of Red Ruthenia was supposed to be part of an attempt to retake Silesia by taking over an important trade route going through those lands.

Besides, look at the borders of Bolesław I's conquests, somehow they all headed west, not east. And Boleslaw a kind and courteous man was not. He wanted to conquer and plunder.

As for the second, let's ask a different question. What does Russia have to gain by invading Ukraine?

Moreover, Russia had been more patient it would have gotten what it wanted, NATO was dying. The EU was falling apart, if it had waited another 5 years it could have seized Ukraine without the world against it. And so Putin achieved what is a Russian nightmare.

A brilliant strategist.

 

[Typhonis]

Russia owes Poland about 50km of land they took from them after WW2.

 

[Buba]

Russia owes Poland about 50km of land they took from them after WW2.

Do you mean this:

1951 Polish–Soviet territorial exchange - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org