Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Marduk]

There are a couple of features on some of the original Leopard 2 prototypes* which were superior to the production version, primarily the EMES-13 passive rangefinder as opposed to the Hughes laser rangefinder which was adopted as part of Germany's efforts to share logistics with the USA. While laser rangefinders are generally considered more advanced than optical ones, the EMES-13 used a fully automated electro-optical measurement system which enabled accurate rangefinding from a mere 350mm optical base length (a traditional man-operated optic sight needed five to eight times this length), and unlike a laser rangefinder produced no detectable emissions.

And that's comparison to original production models, not current state of art variants. Even then, it's more of a different, not straight out better - there are reasons why among all countries laser rangefinders are the common ones now, not similar finicky electro-optical ones, even though laser warning systems got better and more common since then.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

And that's comparison to original production models, not current state of art variants. Even then, it's more of a different, not straight out better - there are reasons why among all countries laser rangefinders are the common ones now, not similar finicky electro-optical ones, even though laser warning systems got better and more common since then.

There were plenty of electro-optical systems, but electro-optical is a very broad term; as far as I'm aware, no one ever actually built another system comparable to EMES-13 where the system was actually doing automated range computation.

(Most current laser warning systems are designed to detect the continuous or near-continuous direct illumination of a targeting laser. The standard trick for using a laser rangefinder in a sensor filled environment is simply to not lase the target itself, but a nearby spot.)

 

[Batrix2070]

olish complainer syndrome"

It is, your whole answer is just this whole sydrom thing.

"making everything ourselves

What kind of everything? The tank is everything? It's just something we shouldn't take into our own production because what? Because we have to swallow what pride? It's not pride, it's just a grim fact that being where we are, i.e. on the NATO front, it's better to have "our own" tank with as few parts imported from abroad as possible. And not to buy from someone.

Puma is actually good at what it's supposed to be, very good even, what else are they supposed to buy?

Good? It's an exaggerated and very lightweight pile of junk that was created by conflating a few conflicting tasks. It is too expensive for what it is supposed to be. That is, a new generation IFV for the Bundeswehr.
Besides, the Puma was not necessary for the Germans.

Ah, so back to make-work economics somewhere between France and the commies.
And you have the gall to talk about making investments...

Only in your head.

o its bad if its expensive when its German,

And here we have a problem, the Germans give dearly for the hardware itself, and the Koreans give dearly for the whole license, but the Germans give even more dearly for their licenses. Another thing is that we can see how eager the Germans are to help the countries that do not like Russia and want to punch it in the face. Which gives yet another reason to avoid them.

More fiction writing. We didn't have enough tanks of any type, doesn't matter which. And German tanks were not crappy at all compared to what existed at the time.

What fiction? The 4TPs were supposed to replace the TKS. And Panzer I and Panzer II were far inferior to such French or British tanks of the period. Hell the Panzer I was just a training tank! The 4TP would have been comparable to the Panzer II and was its peer.

Not replaced. Added. We simply had too little of either. And the "too little, too late" is exactly what you are proposing. We can have one of best tanks in the world 2 years from now with Abrams, or probably ok tank 10+ years later with your ideas.

Too little too late.... The 4TP dates from 1934, he was already there! And it was supposed to replace all TKS in their role as reconnaissance tanks, but these tanks were considered outdated, so they kept the tankettes in the line, and then started desperately trying to modernize them. With 4TP there would be much less problems because it is bigger than TKS so there would be no need to work miracles with it, like adding a radio or a cannon at the same time.

Panther prototype on a test range. Don't ask me where i got photos form 10 years in the future.

It's a tank like our PL-01.

Yes, you can modernize tanks, aircraft etc to some degree before you reach a point where you need a new design to make proper use of new technology, but we are talking of designs that already aren't quite new to begin with.

Yes there is a limit, but today's tanks are built for decades of modernization. K2PL will have a very large reserve of modernization as any other tank of today. Not the original K2 but K2PL does.

As i said, any investment is not good investment, any investment is a fucking waste of money.

*rolls eyes* Investing in your own industry is a waste of money? Then why don't we get rid of it right away because it's a waste of money and buy from foreigners instead.... and no wait. It will be more expensive! And the money that will fly abroad will not come back to us and will feed other people's money.
Let me put it simply, it's better to have something worse but your own than the best but foreign. We don't have everything yet, but we have to start somewhere and not continue to screw around.

Want my solution? Make good shit, then stop importing, not the other way around. Keep importing things that are too hi tech or big ticket for us to make good. MBTs are one of these things, at least until we double our population or GDP per capita. The limits of what we can do are based on the state of our civilian science and industry, that's the basis of what they can hope to accomplish military wise. Throwing random ultra expensive licenses at them doesn't help much if they struggle to even make this stuff up to spec, nevermind modernise it at world pace. Get too ambitious and you end up like with Krabs, after wasting money and years trying, just buy hulls from Korea, could have done that to begin with.

Echh... what can I say to your stubborn talking points?
And how are we supposed to increase our GDP without giving our industry something to do and it's own?
Can you explain to me?
I gave you the example of France and their ARL44 and you apparently politely ignored it because it doesn't fit into your rant that we should do as you put it "good shit" instead of anything enough and then support it to pay off in the future.
It's the fact that you either ignored your own industry, or that you gave it something to work with and then didn't drink the results of the work but chose foreign ones because something makes our industry even though it can give good things stand still.
It's time to break with that for good, and as for hulls. Let me put it this way, it's done the right way, first we try to do it ourselves and when, after many attempts and years, we see that they don't come out of it, only then do we import production techniques to be able to do it.
It's just a pity that we knew how to make such hulls, then the originator of the idea of the Krabs, who was hindered, was kicked out of the Ministry of Defense, and later the appropriate specialists, and when the topic was dusted again, it suddenly turned out that we don't know how to do it, despite the fact that we have photos and films that in the past this whole "shit" worked flawlessly with prototypes which, after the project was shelved, were destroyed because there was no point in making costs.
It is a comedy what has happened here with the crabs since they were pulled from limbo.

 

[Marduk]

It is, your whole answer is just this whole sydrom thing.

What kind of everything? The tank is everything? It's just something we shouldn't take into our own production because what? Because we have to swallow what pride? It's not pride, it's just a grim fact that being where we are, i.e. on the NATO front, it's better to have "our own" tank with as few parts imported from abroad as possible. And not to buy from someone.

Ok, so what's your criteria for what we have to make ourselves and what can be imported?
Throwing a dart at a board? Your personal fancy? What next, one day you will have a dream, wake up, and decide we need domestic supersonic interceptor production, and we can do it dammit because you have the ambition?

Good? It's an exaggerated and very lightweight pile of junk that was created by conflating a few conflicting tasks. It is too expensive for what it is supposed to be. That is, a new generation IFV for the Bundeswehr.
Besides, the Puma was not necessary for the Germans.

Careful here, you are trying to act like an expert in military industrial complex here, and now you come suggest Germans don't need IFVs, like some kind of military doctrine crackpot no one would take seriously.
Also Puma lightweight? In what universe? It's over 30t in the lightest variant, few tons heavier than Bradleys. It's nearing T-72's in the heaviest. Do you consider Namer a medium weight IFV or what?

Realistically we lack half the technologies to make up to date MBTs, nevermind an industry competitive in pushing the technology for the next generation, so even filling up the lacks in former with expensive licenses is pointless industrial welfare because we will be in the same position again when the next generation comes.

Only in your head.

And here we have a problem, the Germans give dearly for the hardware itself, and the Koreans give dearly for the whole license, but the Germans give even more dearly for their licenses. Another thing is that we can see how eager the Germans are to help the countries that do not like Russia and want to punch it in the face. Which gives yet another reason to avoid them.

The point being, there is no free lunch in the military hardware market, but a lot of sharks willing to squeeze money out of you, for things you can't make use of anyway. That's why you think twice before you spend billions on licenses from anyone.

What fiction? The 4TPs were supposed to replace the TKS. And Panzer I and Panzer II were far inferior to such French or British tanks of the period. Hell the Panzer I was just a training tank! The 4TP would have been comparable to the Panzer II and was its peer.

French still used literally WW1 FT-17's at the time alongside other models (which were often poorly organized, slowass, and lacked radios), and British tanks has legends of their own in early war, and rarely good ones.

Too little too late.... The 4TP dates from 1934, he was already there! And it was supposed to replace all TKS in their role as reconnaissance tanks, but these tanks were considered outdated, so they kept the tankettes in the line, and then started desperately trying to modernize them. With 4TP there would be much less problems because it is bigger than TKS so there would be no need to work miracles with it, like adding a radio or a cannon at the same time.

As i said, the French kept outright WW1 tanks in service, no tanks could be more obsolete than that. We could simply not afford the amount of tanks we needed, new, old, any. FT-17's would have been better than nothing. Nothing wrong with tankettes in the 30's, all major powers had their own at the time and kept them, even if in recon or second line roles if they had better tanks for other roles, like French AMR 33 and 35, also machinegun armed only. Even TKS in the 20mm armed variants were better for tank vs tank warfare. Soviets used plenty of tankettes in the war even when they had heavier designs like KV and T-34 alongside them already.

It's a tank like our PL-01.

Still more, PL-01 didn't get a functional prototype, only a model.

Yes there is a limit, but today's tanks are built for decades of modernization. K2PL will have a very large reserve of modernization as any other tank of today. Not the original K2 but K2PL does.

Wishful thinking doesn't make K2 into K3. Want decades of modernization potential, jump ahead to K3. Otherwise, it's a tank of the same generation as Abrams and Leo 2, nothing magical about it, it has the same "reserve of modernisation" that's already used to certain degree. Just the question of who will invest how much into modernizing it. And once Koreans switch to investing into K3 we are boned because we have neither the technology nor funding to keep pulling the upgrade development schedule ourselves.

*rolls eyes* Investing in your own industry is a waste of money? Then why don't we get rid of it right away because it's a waste of money and buy from foreigners instead.... and no wait. It will be more expensive! And the money that will fly abroad will not come back to us and will feed other people's money.
Let me put it simply, it's better to have something worse but your own than the best but foreign.

Your ideas mean you will have something of your own that is as good as foreign from 30 years ago but costs as much as the best NATO suppliers have to offer. Defense funding is supposed to get us a good army, not industrial welfare.

We don't have everything yet, but we have to start somewhere and not continue to screw around.

No we don't, it's a meaningless argument, you could aswell say that we "have to start somewhere" with jet fighters. Get your head out of the clouds, it's not 1930's anymore, you need a huge budget if you want to keep up with the miltech of today, and we cannot provide that in many areas, especially the more big ticket and established ones.
The "wild west" of new technologies where advancement is fast and hard to predict, yet items are small ticket, like light drones, body armor, small guided munitions are frankly far more worthwhile of an investment, because we can luck out and become one of the established suppliers where there are none. Want to compete with Germans and Americans in making MBTs now, you need mad funding and technology or don't bother trying because it can't work otherwise, there is no room for luck or wild shots.

Echh... what can I say to your stubborn talking points?
And how are we supposed to increase our GDP without giving our industry something to do and it's own?
Can you explain to me?

"Giving our industry something to do".
The very fact that you use such a phrase means you fail to understand the issue. We aren't trying to keep up with North Korea, or even Russian industry (also they have oil/gas money to fund screwing around with, we don't), we are trying to be economically efficient here and be competitive with the west.
Our industry needs to keep up with market competition, or else there is no point. That means finding itself something to do on the free market, and doing it better and/or cheaper than everyone else. In some areas it can, that's great. We should invest into successes, not wildly throw money at all the failures and cons around and hope successes pop up, industrial welfare doesn't have a good track record in that.

I gave you the example of France and their ARL44 and you apparently politely ignored it because it doesn't fit into your rant that we should do as you put it "good shit" instead of anything enough and then support it to pay off in the future.

State ownership heavy France is not an economic model we want to or can import with success. French tanks after ARL44 were quite unorthodox designs by everyone else's standards and didn't age well. They finally went to more conventional one with Leclerc, but yet again they are thinking seriously about going back to joint projects.
To add insult to injury Leclerc is nowhere near the export hit Leo 2 or Abrams are, sold only to oil rich Arabs.
We also aren't an old world superpower who can bully or bribe some EU (see: how they tried to push it on us) neighboring and third world countries into buying our crap.
And last but not least, that's still France, a country with over 4 times the GDP of ours.

It's the fact that you either ignored your own industry, or that you gave it something to work with and then didn't drink the results of the work but chose foreign ones because something makes our industry even though it can give good things stand still.
It's time to break with that for good, and as for hulls. Let me put it this way, it's done the right way, first we try to do it ourselves and when, after many attempts and years, we see that they don't come out of it, only then do we import production techniques to be able to do it.

Ah, so we should make sure to waste money and time every time we try to improve our military, even when we know better and could skip that step, got it. Have you considered founding your own school of statecraft and management?

It's just a pity that we knew how to make such hulls, then the originator of the idea of the Krabs, who was hindered, was kicked out of the Ministry of Defense, and later the appropriate specialists, and when the topic was dusted again, it suddenly turned out that we don't know how to do it, despite the fact that we have photos and films that in the past this whole "shit" worked flawlessly with prototypes which, after the project was shelved, were destroyed because there was no point in making costs.
It is a comedy what has happened here with the crabs since they were pulled from limbo.

What does the ministry staffing have to do with industrial expertise in the manufacturing company?

 

[ShadowArxxy]

The Turkish "Altay" MBT is a license-produced upgrade of those K2 Black Panthers, with cost jumping from the Black Panther's already stupidly expensive $8.9 million per tank to a ludicrous $13.75 million per tank, and this was for relatively minor upgrades (domestically made gun, armor, and APS system that were all straightforward like-for-like swaps). Moreover, the contract for this vehicle was signed all the way back in 2007, but it took until 2016 to produce a single prototype vehicle, and they still haven't gotten any production to this day.

Given that the proposed "Wolf" is a vastly more ambitious upgrade, it is likely to cost vastly more and take even longer, likely on the order of $18-20 million per tank and not seeing any actual results for 15-20 years.

 

[Zachowon]

Litvinenko claimed Putin was caught on film having sex with boys

When the future Russian president was a student, he was filmed abusing children in a flat in Moscow, Litvinenko wrote in a sensational web post reproduced in the inquiry report.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Looks like both the US and Russia have Pedos for leaders.
At least ours doesn't have full blown sex.

Now...let's bring up the Aids and the like....

Seems like Russia has a lot more going on for why this war could be going on them we realize

 

[Arch Dornan]

Has this been brought up before?

Decolonize Russia

To avoid more senseless bloodshed, the Kremlin must lose what empire it still retains.

www.theatlantic.com

Appeal to Decolonize the Russian Federation - Notes - e-flux

We demand peaceful destruction of the empire.

www.e-flux.com

I consider such plans too early until Russia is well and truly fucked but anyone in favor of buck breaking them as it happened to the losers of WW1 and WW2?

 

[Marduk]

Has this been brought up before?

Decolonize Russia

To avoid more senseless bloodshed, the Kremlin must lose what empire it still retains.

www.theatlantic.com

Appeal to Decolonize the Russian Federation - Notes - e-flux

We demand peaceful destruction of the empire.

www.e-flux.com

I consider such plans too early until Russia is well and truly fucked but anyone in favor of buck breaking them as it happened to the losers of WW1 and WW2?

Well it is a solution to the problem in long term. Otherwise even after Putin Russia will remain a country that needs some degree of authoritarianism to keep what it has, and has lots of "resource curse" for said authoritarians to play with, giving them easy money for corruption and expansionism alike if they ever feel interested in such things (hint: they will). Which means that even if theoretically they don't have to be dicks, they have all the tools and incentives to be dicks anyway.
The main problems are:
1.How to make it happen without nuclear proliferation getting too bad this or that way.
2.How to keep the resource rich regions from getting gobbled up by China instead.

 

[Arch Dornan]

Well it is a solution to the problem in long term. Otherwise even after Putin Russia will remain a country that needs some degree of authoritarianism to keep what it has, and has lots of "resource curse" for said authoritarians to play with, giving them easy money for corruption and expansionism alike.
The main problems are:
1.How to make it happen without nuclear proliferation getting too bad this or that way.
2.How to keep the resource rich region from getting gobbled up by China instead.

The biggest problem is your leaders. They will fuck it up in their greed implementing it as everyone in their club will want a piece of the pie.

 

[Marduk]

The biggest problem is your leaders. They will fuck it up in their greed implementing it as everyone in their club will want a piece of the pie.

Ironically that's hardly the worst thing they can do. The resource profits in fact should be somehow divided across many parties, preferably enough so that none is able to comfortably run a large segment of their government spending off that revenue, or else someone is going to replicate the "resource curse" problem.

 

[Arch Dornan]

Ironically that's hardly the worst thing they can do. The resource profits in fact should be somehow divided across many parties, preferably enough so that none is able to comfortably run a large segment of their government spending off that revenue, or else someone is going to replicate the "resource curse" problem.

What's the worst thing? Looting? Ethnic forced migrations? Cultural derussification? US and NATO bases in there like in post war Europe and Japan?

 

[Marduk]

What's the worst thing? Looting? Ethnic forced migrations? Cultural derussification? US and NATO bases in there like in post war Europe and Japan?

Worst thing? Probably border wars by various claimed nation-states arguing over resource rich contested territories with nukes in the background.

 

[Arch Dornan]

Worst thing? Probably border wars by various claimed nation-states arguing over resource rich contested territories with nukes in the background.

You're right. The obvious possible outcome for a mega state balkanising and forming into warlord states.

 

[WolfBear]

So... this feels like a major escalation.

Russia threatens to strike targets in Britain over UK weapons in Ukraine

RUSSIA has threatened to strike military targets in the UK after Britain supplied weapons to Ukraine. Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova said the hits could be authorised against…

www.thesun.co.uk

Russian state TV threatens to wipe out ‘boorish’ UK with ballistic missile

Russian state TV host Vladimir Solovyov threatened the annihilation of the United Kingdom on Wednesday with the Sarmat, Russia’s newest ballistic missile.

nypost.com

This is the same dumbass who previously got his Italian villas confiscated:

Russian Propagandist Vladimir Solovyov’s Italian Villas Torched and Vandalized

Two of three Lake Como homes belonging to Putin propagandist Vladimir Solovyov were attacked overnight.

www.thedailybeast.com

He wants to threaten Britain with nuclear annihilation while also wanting to live in Italy while also criticizing Russians who are unwilling to give up delicacies like French and Italian cheeses! My dad reported his channel to YouTube for inciting hatred.

 

[ATP]

This is the same dumbass who previously got his Italian villas confiscated:

Russian Propagandist Vladimir Solovyov’s Italian Villas Torched and Vandalized

Two of three Lake Como homes belonging to Putin propagandist Vladimir Solovyov were attacked overnight.

www.thedailybeast.com

He wants to threaten Britain with nuclear annihilation while also wanting to live in Italy while also criticizing Russians who are unwilling to give up delicacies like French and Italian cheeses! My dad reported his channel to YouTube for inciting hatred.

That is problem with current Moscov elites.Stalin really lived in villa,but near Moscov.And would schoot anybody who try to have villa in capitalist country.

But - that made their threats empty.Stalin would go for suicidal war in the name of communism,becouse he was genocider,but one who belive in his bloody faith.
Putin&boys? they belive only in their right to rule over kgbstan.They would send others to die,but never die themselves.

 

[WolfBear]

That is problem with current Moscov elites.Stalin really lived in villa,but near Moscov.And would schoot anybody who try to have villa in capitalist country.

But - that made their threats empty.Stalin would go for suicidal war in the name of communism,becouse he was genocider,but one who belive in his bloody faith.
Putin&boys? they belive only in their right to rule over kgbstan.They would send others to die,but never die themselves.

It's very sad that Putin does not have a son that he could make a shaheed (martyr) in his war against Ukraine. But of course, if Putin had a son and his son lived, then his son could have succeeded him as Russia's dictator.

 

[ATP]

It's very sad that Putin does not have a son that he could make a shaheed (martyr) in his war against Ukraine. But of course, if Putin had a son and his son lived, then his son could have succeeded him as Russia's dictator.

As in soviet joke:
could son of soviet general become soviet marschall?
No,becouse marschall have son,too!

 

[WolfBear]

Has this been brought up before?

Decolonize Russia

To avoid more senseless bloodshed, the Kremlin must lose what empire it still retains.

www.theatlantic.com

Appeal to Decolonize the Russian Federation - Notes - e-flux

We demand peaceful destruction of the empire.

www.e-flux.com

I consider such plans too early until Russia is well and truly fucked but anyone in favor of buck breaking them as it happened to the losers of WW1 and WW2?

I'd personally like to see Russia de-Nazified, but I'm not a huge fan of breaking it up since it is around 80% ethnic Russian right now. Unless of course someone wants to leave Russia without creating an Islamist theocracy. (Chechens I fear could have either an Islamist theocracy or a murderous dictatorship under Ramzan Kadyrov as an alternative to Russian rule.)

That said, though, there is a century-old meme of Greater Russia as a prison of nations:



But Greater Russia no longer exists right now, thankfully--though unfortunately Putin (Putler) is trying to resurrect it.

 

[Bacle]

 

[Marduk]

I'd personally like to see Russia de-Nazified, but I'm not a huge fan of breaking it up since it is around 80% ethnic Russian right now.

With a question mark - the official line in Russia is that Ukrainians are also ethnic Russians, just corrupted by the evil NATO with nationalism.

Unless of course someone wants to leave Russia without creating an Islamist theocracy. (Chechens I fear could have either an Islamist theocracy or a murderous dictatorship under Ramzan Kadyrov as an alternative to Russian rule.)

But that part is already a thing, except the murderous dictatorship is also a vassal to Moscow.
The big deal strategically that is less talked of in the west are the mostly heathen or buddhist eastern parts with very few people and a lot of resources.

At this rate Russians will have a choice to vacation in Belarus (soon to be Also Russia), Iran (read up on how to not get hung or beheaded before going), Syria (bring your own AK), Crimea (you get paid for it and get a state AK) or North Korea (bring your own food).