Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[WolfBear]

The IRA style resistance predictions are getting vindicated i see.

Yep. It's dangerous being a collaborationist, thankfully!

 

[Aldarion]

First off this looks like it's setting up a strawman. No the Islamic empires weren't "pan confessional bastions of humanism and secular rights" No they were empires and they privileged Muslims above others. Yet others could live as second class citizens which is more than other nations at the time gave. Islamic Spain allowed Christians and Muslims to exist(second class citizens yes, your modern nation states would consider it apartheid and human rights violations yes), yet Christian Spain had expelled all it's Muslims and Jews. You can make a liberal argument that apartheid is bad, but then surely Nazi style ethnic cleansing is worse.

Except the "pan confessional bastions of humanism and secular rights" is precisely what Leftist historiography is portraying the Muslim empires as. Look at how they talk about "religious tolerance" in Islamic Spain. There were as many pogroms of Christians there as were of Jews in Christian Spain, but nobody talks about them.

Christian Spain expelled Muslims and Jews largely as a security measure. It is the same reason why Inquisition was formed: Muslims kept undermining the kingdom wherever they could, as their religion ordered them to fight against the infidels. They simply couldn't be trusted, hence the Inquisition and expulsions.

And no, it was nothing like "Nazi style ethnic cleansing".

I'm sorry was Queen Isabel elected to the throne of Spain? EVERY powerful nation at that time was an autocracy, they all kept rule through brute force and thats how peace was kept.

Sorry, that is just bullshit. Monarchy does not mean autocracy, and even autocracy does not mean tyranny. Queen Isabel had legitimacy in that people accepted her rule and she had responsibility towards the people. That is how medieval monarchies worked. Brute force was used on occasion, but it was not the basis of the rule. Feudal kings especially could not rely on brute force to ensure their rule; in fact, no king could, at least until 16th century (and more like 17th - 18th).

Also, considering how powerful nobility and cities were, monarchist Spain of the time was literally anything but an autocracy. Same goes for most other powerful nations of the time. Byzantine Empire was the closest thing to autocracy in Christian Europe of the time, and even there the Emperor couldn't just do whatever the hell he wanted, as the themes and cities could easily object to his degrees.

Yes, Jews and Christians had higher taxes. They were second class citizens, I conceded this. Islamic Spain was not some liberal secular state where all men were equal. And I can sense the hostility on "the booty and tribute obtained in military incursions against Catholic lands." Do European Christian Kings not gain wealth from sacking foreign lands? And do they not also punish rebels mercilessly?

European Christian kings did not have religious mandate to conquer other countries. They did fight among each other, but majority of this warfare was a) wholly political and b) limited in size and scope. It was also relatively sporadic, and peace agreement was actually peace agreement.

Muslim-Christian warfare was fundamentally different. Muslims did NOT accept any limits in their warfare against infidels. Likewise, any agreements with Muslims could not be trusted, due to Muslim interpretation of rules of warfare in relation to non-Muslims. Even when peace was signed, and obeyed, this merely meant the end of large-scale campaigns. Raids continued. In short: regardless of any diplomacy and agreements, any Christian state bordering a Muslim polity had to endure constant, around-the-clock warfare and fight for survival. Peace was impossibility.

And this was what I was looking for. The Jews in Spain frequently betrayed the Christians to help the Muslims. Why is this, are Jews just naturally treacherous, or do they side with what is in their best interests like other humans? Now studies on Jews betraying anyone are hard to find, because of the uh political nature of the claim, but yes Muslims treated Jews not equal to Muslims, yes it's not a secular nation that tries to make all citizens equal. But here is the thing, they treated Jews, better than the Christian Kingdoms did. That's why the Jews were behind all those conspiracies.

While this is true, it also fundamentally negates the claims of Muslim Spain as being inherently tolerant society.

No shit. I've never heard anyone say that Islam treated women equal to men. You'd have to be dumber than John Green and his Mongols were totally good to make a claim like "They were into women power like Norway and Sweden are today!" The most you can say is that Islam was better to women than what was BEFORE Islam. But considering Pagan societies had Sati, or burried girls alive, that's not a high bar. Yes Muslims and Christians in the 1800's and before agreed with keeping women in the kitchen.

Eh, I have seen claims by few Leftists that Muslim treatment of women was better than medieval Christian treatment of women. Which is just bullshit.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

we expect Russia to spy on everyone because thats how the game is played every one spys on everyone else.

What we don't expect them to do is fuck it up because spying is one of the few things their honestly pretty good at.

Its not like this is a global hawk or something. its cheap disposable drone

 

[Marduk]

For those who think Ukraine is some sort of woke western puppet:

Top Zelensky advisor under fire for calling LGBT people 'deviants'

"The LGBT community is outraged and talking about my resignation. But look at this photo and you’ll understand who should be truly outraged. I think I’m being persecuted, no? I demand tolerance."

thepostmillennial.com

 

[Terthna]

For those who think Ukraine is some sort of woke western puppet:

Top Zelensky advisor under fire for calling LGBT people 'deviants'

"The LGBT community is outraged and talking about my resignation. But look at this photo and you’ll understand who should be truly outraged. I think I’m being persecuted, no? I demand tolerance."

thepostmillennial.com

I'm fairly certain most of the western elite feel the same way; they just consider them useful deviants that are easy to manipulate into attacking their enemies.

 

[mrttao]

For those who think Ukraine is some sort of woke western puppet:

Top Zelensky advisor under fire for calling LGBT people 'deviants'

"The LGBT community is outraged and talking about my resignation. But look at this photo and you’ll understand who should be truly outraged. I think I’m being persecuted, no? I demand tolerance."

thepostmillennial.com

> Ukranian govt official gets cancelled over extremely mild slight towards alphabet people
> he didn't actually say "they are deviants". he said it is a "deviation from the norm".
> Also he is an alphabet person himself. The "girl" on the right is actually said top advisor in drag.
> Under pressure by their woke masters to can him anyways

How exactly is this proof they are not a woke western puppet? Replace "top ukranian advisor" with "some rando conservative party member in the west" and you got tuesday.

Also, being a woke puppet does not mean everyone in the country is woke. It means the country is occupied by a woke leadership who is quick to crackdown on any wrongthink whenever someone steps out of line to appease their masters.

The IRA style resistance predictions are getting vindicated i see.

Could be, or it could be western mercenaries.

 

[mrttao]

I'm fairly certain most of the western elite feel the same way; they just consider them useful deviants that are easy to manipulate into attacking their enemies.

I am reminded of this

Spoiler

 

[Marduk]

> Ukranian govt official gets cancelled over extremely mild slight towards alphabet people

Unsuccessfully.

> he didn't actually say "they are deviants". he said it is a "deviation from the norm".

Oh he went further than that.

a clip of an advisor to President Volodymyr Zelenskyy saying that LGBTQ people are "people with disabilities" and a "deviation from the norm."

And then he proceeded to shitpost them with the later mentioned photo and quoted commentary.

> Also he is an alphabet person himself. The "girl" on the right is actually said top advisor in drag.

Are you too lazy or too incompetent to read? It's from his days as an actor. You know what actors do, right?

> Under pressure by their woke masters to can him anyways

Again, unsuccessfully.

How exactly is this proof they are not a woke western puppet? Replace "top ukranian advisor" with "some rando conservative party member in the west" and you got tuesday.

But he isn't some random party member, his name shows up a lot in the news.

Also, being a woke puppet does not mean everyone in the country is woke. It means the country is occupied by a woke leadership who is quick to crackdown on any wrongthink whenever someone steps out of line to appease their masters.

He is part of the leadership.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

In other but related news, Poland has placed an absolutely massive foreign sales order for two hundred fifty new M1A2 SEPv(3) Abrams tanks, twenty-six Hercules combat recovery vehicles, seventeen assault bridgelayers, and comprehensive spare parts and training ammunition, adding up to six billion dollars worth of state of the art combat hardware. It would appear that Poland is drawing on some very specific memories about Russian invasions, and wishes to make it very, unmistakably clear that any attempt to repeat 1939 is going to go the way of the Battle of Klushino.

 

[Bacle]

Well, this should prove interesting. Without oil or gold to prop it up, Russia won't be able to keep the ruble strong for much longer, and this will limit trade goods they can get from others for no other reason than they cannot fall back on mineral wealth to sustain their economy.

 

[mrttao]

Well, this should prove interesting. Without oil or gold to prop it up, Russia won't be able to keep the ruble strong for much longer, and this will limit trade goods they can get from others for no other reason than they cannot fall back on mineral wealth to sustain their economy.

Wait a minute, it does not say ban only Russian gold.
It says ban gold import (as in, all of it?) to western countries to hurt russia.

Either this is poorly written, or this has more to do with them trying to deal with hyperinflation by preventing us from having an alternative currency.

 

[Marduk]

In other but related news, Poland has placed an absolutely massive foreign sales order for two hundred fifty new M1A2 SEPv(3) Abrams tanks, twenty-six Hercules combat recovery vehicles, seventeen assault bridgelayers, and comprehensive spare parts and training ammunition, adding up to six billion dollars worth of state of the art combat hardware. It would appear that Poland is drawing on some very specific memories about Russian invasions, and wishes to make it very, unmistakably clear that any attempt to repeat 1939 is going to go the way of the Battle of Klushino.

That's not exactly news, it's just how slow the bureaucracies work, the decision was taken before the war.

Poland Outlines Abrams Tank Procurement

Poland’s defense minister, Mariusz Blaszczak, confirmed rumors of a planned acquisition by Warsaw of 250 M1A2 Abrams SEPv3 main battle tanks (MBTs) from the U.S. on July 14. The purchase of t…

dsm.forecastinternational.com

Now there are some ideas about accelerating it.

U.S. Army Could Use New Lend-Lease Act To Speed M1 Abrams Tanks to Poland

Poland wants modern replacements for the 240 older tanks it has donated to Ukraine, but won't currently get U.S. M1s until 2025.

www.thedrive.com

Also that's not even the most massive order as far as Poland goes.

Poland signs Letter of Request with US to acquire 500 HIMARS M142 rockets/missiles launchers | Defense News May 2022 Global Security army industry | Defense Security global news industry army year 2022 | Archive News year

Poland has signed a Letter of Request (LOR) with the United States for the acquisition of 500 M142 HIMARS (High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems)

armyrecognition.com

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Well, this should prove interesting. Without oil or gold to prop it up, Russia won't be able to keep the ruble strong for much longer, and this will limit trade goods they can get from others for no other reason than they cannot fall back on mineral wealth to sustain their economy.

The rest of the world doesnt care and will continue to trade with Russia

 

[ATP]

In other but related news, Poland has placed an absolutely massive foreign sales order for two hundred fifty new M1A2 SEPv(3) Abrams tanks, twenty-six Hercules combat recovery vehicles, seventeen assault bridgelayers, and comprehensive spare parts and training ammunition, adding up to six billion dollars worth of state of the art combat hardware. It would appear that Poland is drawing on some very specific memories about Russian invasions, and wishes to make it very, unmistakably clear that any attempt to repeat 1939 is going to go the way of the Battle of Klushino.

Waste of money.We should buy instead Warmate drones,Piorun Manpads,and 120mm mortars for territorial units.
And build our own Himars,instead of buing them - Belarus could do so,so we could do that,too.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Waste of money.We should buy instead Warmate drones,Piorun Manpads,and 120mm mortars for territorial units.
And build our own Himars,instead of buing them - Belarus could do so,so we could do that,too.

One of the purposes of NATO is to lock you into the American MIC. Now instead of developing your own domestic weapons, you get to the be dependent on the Americans.

 

[Marduk]

Waste of money.We should buy instead Warmate drones,Piorun Manpads,and 120mm mortars for territorial units.

Doing that anyway. You can't win wars with light infantry alone.

And build our own Himars,instead of buing them - Belarus could do so,so we could do that,too.

We could build our own HIMARS, but we couldn't build our own HIMARS missiles, which are the real selling point of the system.
Meanwhile Belarus has just put an old Smerch on a new truck.

One of the purposes of NATO is to lock you into the American MIC. Now instead of developing your own domestic weapons, you get to the be dependent on the Americans.

Yeah, sure, make your own F-35, up to date MBTs and tactical missiles. Compete with such miltech superpowers like Pakistan and North Korea.

 

[Arch Dornan]

The rest of the world doesnt care and will continue to trade with Russia

If that land based trade route works as intended that's what they'll do and more.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Doing that anyway. You can't win wars with light infantry alone.

We could build our own HIMARS, but we couldn't build our own HIMARS missiles, which are the real selling point of the system.
Meanwhile Belarus has just put an old Smerch on a new truck.

Yeah, sure, make your own F-35, up to date MBTs and tactical missiles. Compete with such miltech superpowers like Pakistan and North Korea.

I never claimed that poland should develop everything itself, thats obviously impossible.

 

[Marduk]

I never claimed that poland should develop everything itself, thats obviously impossible.

You have made a very general statement with an implication of for-profit conspiracy, yet you still don't bother to limit it, just dodge.

 

[ATP]

Doing that anyway. You can't win wars with light infantry alone.

We could build our own HIMARS, but we couldn't build our own HIMARS missiles, which are the real selling point of the system.
Meanwhile Belarus has just put an old Smerch on a new truck.

Yeah, sure, make your own F-35, up to date MBTs and tactical missiles. Compete with such miltech superpowers like Pakistan and North Korea.

1.We could not win with Moscov alone,only hold long enough for USA start sending help.If we have 50.000 Warmates,it would stop cold any invasion.
2.Then nuy license from Brasil,they are building both.We need those missiles build here.
3.Tactical missiles - could buy license from Brasil,too.Tanks - we could made built T.72 with new turret with 120mm gun,PT16 or something.Enough for Moscov.
Or buy license from South Korea - it is better then Abrams,and they agree to sell license.
Buing american tanks is idiotic.They could just stop selling parts when we do not agree to something lgbt/Izrael/whatever want.
Not such problem with South Korea.
planes - indeed,we could not build them.But - we should buy Gripen,not F.35.For the same reason - USA would stop selling parts if we do not become woke philosemites.