Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

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I see you've jumped in with your periodic 'yes my name is ironic' spate of posts.

As to the matter of artillery shell production, how does it compare to other nations' production over the same period?

Pointing out that 'arms production when not in a war-time economy isn't very intensive' is not in and of itself anything remarkable.
Doubly so since a single 155mm howitzer can send 5,760 - give or take - shells downrange in day if it doesn't need to be moved and it's an emergency.

You want stockpiles and a well-supplied military isn't going to run out of ammunition except in local situations where the magazines are empty and withdrawing to take a bit of a breather is needed.
 
Doubly so since a single 155mm howitzer can send 5,760 - give or take - shells downrange in day if it doesn't need to be moved and it's an emergency.
As the saying goes, just because it can, doesn't mean it should. Russia is certainly well suited at Russia's century+ obsolete way of doing war centered around spamming artillery shells supplied by a logistical system that lives or dies on rails. It's one of the reasons why they didn't win yet (what happened to all the shills who claimed Russia will take over all or at least half of Ukraine in 3-14 days?), and is catching more war crime accusations than it needs to otherwise while not winning. Naturally those who don't plan on waging war according to this doctrine don't need the means to do so.
 
As the saying goes, just because it can, doesn't mean it should. Russia is certainly well suited at Russia's century+ obsolete way of doing war centered around spamming artillery shells supplied by a logistical system that lives or dies on rails. It's one of the reasons why they didn't win yet (what happened to all the shills who claimed Russia will take over all or at least half of Ukraine in 3-14 days?), and is catching more war crime accusations than it needs to otherwise while not winning. Naturally those who don't plan on waging war according to this doctrine don't need the means to do so.


Russia outnumbers Ukraine, has a larger more experienced army and was known as one of the great powers easily being in the top 10 best militaries in the world. No one expected them to fuck up as badly as they did or for Ukraine to do as well as it did. Them winning the war in a few weeks was very much possible.

Until they fucked up, now Ukraine is basically being backed logistically by the entire world expecially eastern europe who fully understands they are next.
 
Russia outnumbers Ukraine, has a larger more experienced army and was known as one of the great powers easily being in the top 10 best militaries in the world. No one expected them to fuck up as badly as they did or for Ukraine to do as well as it did. Them winning the war in a few weeks was very much possible.

Until they fucked up, now Ukraine is basically being backed logistically by the entire world expecially eastern europe who fully understands they are next.
No one knew for sure if the infamous corruption of Russian government reaches deeply into the military, or perhaps the FSB keeps a lid on this. Hell, Russian government itself probably didn't know, so it couldn't be leaked, and any issues spotted independently could be written off as exceptions rather than the norm. As it turned out, reality has turned out to support the most negative predictions in this regard.
Putin's decision to proceed with a not-war and practically not apply the numerical advantage due to dramatically underestimating the enemy has sealed their fate, in case that wasn't enough.
 
I see you've jumped in with your periodic 'yes my name is ironic' spate of posts.

Someone has to be around to point out how little you know, so I'm glad to take on that burden to educate you.

As to the matter of artillery shell production, how does it compare to other nations' production over the same period?

If you had bothered to actually read the thread, perhaps you would learn a thing or two:



Pointing out that 'arms production when not in a war-time economy isn't very intensive' is not in and of itself anything remarkable.

In which you would be well advised to read the numerous past reports I've linked you to. Start with RUSI's The Return of Industrial Warfare:
This reality should be a concrete warning to Western countries, who have scaled down military industrial capacity and sacrificed scale and effectiveness for efficiency. This strategy relies on flawed assumptions about the future of war, and has been influenced by both the bureaucratic culture in Western governments and the legacy of low-intensity conflicts. Currently, the West may not have the industrial capacity to fight a large-scale war. If the US government is planning to once again become the arsenal of democracy, then the existing capabilities of the US military-industrial base and the core assumptions that have driven its development need to be re-examined.​

Further:

Presently, the US is decreasing its artillery ammunition stockpiles. In 2020, artillery ammunition purchases decreased by 36% to $425 million. In 2022, the plan is to reduce expenditure on 155mm artillery rounds to $174 million. This is equivalent to 75,357 M795 basic ‘dumb’ rounds for regular artillery, 1,400 XM1113 rounds for the M777, and 1,046 XM1113 rounds for Extended Round Artillery Cannons. Finally, there are $75 million dedicated for Excalibur precision-guided munitions that costs $176K per round, thus totaling 426 rounds. In short, US annual artillery production would at best only last for 10 days to two weeks of combat in Ukraine. If the initial estimate of Russian shells fired is over by 50%, it would only extend the artillery supplied for three weeks.​
The US is not the only country facing this challenge. In a recent war game involving US, UK and French forces, UK forces exhausted national stockpiles of critical ammunition after eight days.​
You can then also read up on the Pentagon's official report on the state of the MIC, which Forbes reported on previously; I've in the past directly linked you to the report and to which you never replied.
 
The US singlehandedly caused the war to be won by the Allies.
Without the US Soviets wouldn't have had the logistics.
Without the US Britain would have had lack of supplies.
Etc etc.
The US didn't have to be feared.
We knew what we were doing

We didn't have to be feared because without our allies, there was no need to fear us at all. Without the Soviet Union in the war, the conclusion of the U.S. Military is that we would lose the war against Nazi Germany. See Mark Stoler's Allies and Adversaries: The Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Grand Alliance, and U.S. Strategy in World War II, Page 72:

Eisenhower and his subordinates were far from alone or original in perceiving the overriding importance of continued Soviet participation in the war. As previously noted, in the summer and fall of 1941 Roosevelt and army planners had begun to recognize that victory over Germany might not be possible unless the Red Army continued to tie down the bulk of the Wehrmacht, and they consequently had made assistance to Russia a focal point of their global strategy. The JB had forcefully reiterated this conclusion by informing Roosevelt on December 21 that ‘‘Russia alone possesses the manpower potentially able to defeat Germany in Europe.’’ 26 The Soviets’ late 1941 success in stopping the German advance on Moscow and launching a counteroffensive, occurring at a time when Axis forces were everywhere else successful, further reinforced this belief. As a result virtually all Allied planning papers in late 1941– early 1942 stressed the critical importance of aiding the Russians so that they could survive a renewed German onslaught. Roosevelt agreed. ‘‘Nothing would be worse than to have the Russians collapse,’’ he told Treasury secretary Henry Morgenthau on March 11. ‘‘I would rather lose New Zealand, Australia, or anything else than have the Russians collapse.’’ Five days earlier the JUSSC had bluntly stated that ‘‘Russia must be supported now by every possible means’’ because the absence of a Russian front would postpone ‘‘indefinitely’’ the end of the war.27 And as army planners realized, such postponement would only increase public and naval pressure to turn away completely from the indecisive European theater in favor of the Pacific.​

Page 80:

Marshall’s reasoning was based not only on Eisenhower’s February–March presentations but also on military and political events since then which had heavily reinforced the OPD’s original conclusions. Once again the focal point was the Soviet Union. ‘‘The retention of Russia in the war as an active participant is vital to Allied victory,’’ now acting chief of staff McNarney had emphasized on April 12; if German armies were allowed to turn west, ‘‘any opportunity for a successful offensive against the European Axis would be virtually eliminated.’’ 56 In mid June the staff again warned that Russian collapse would necessitate a strategic reassessment, ‘‘possibly with the result of directing our main effort to the Pacific rather than the Atlantic.’’ 57​

Page 93:

As early as April–May, OPD, g-2, and the joint committees had begun to explore the appropriate response should this ‘‘desperate situation’’ result in a Soviet collapse, and in early August the JUSSC completed and forwarded to the JPS a massive study of such a contingency. This study indicated that Russian collapse would be a ‘‘catastrophe’’ of such magnitude as to put the United States in a ‘‘desperate’’ situation too, one in which it ‘‘would be forced to consider courses of action which would primarily benefit the United States rather than the United Nations.’’
Indeed, it might be the only remaining major member of the United Nations, because the British Commonwealth might collapse and the British public react to Soviet defeat by overthrowing Churchill and agreeing to a negotiated peace that would leave Hitler in control of Eurasia. A revival of isolationism and an ‘‘increase in defeatism’’ within the country were also possible in this scenario. Even without British withdrawal, however, the only sound U.S. response to a Soviet collapse would be to ‘‘adopt the strategic defensive in the European Theater of War and to conduct the strategic offensive in the Japanese theater.’’ On August 19 the JPS the great strategic debate 93 approved this report, forwarded it to the Joint Chiefs as JCS 85, and ordered the preparation of a strategic plan for the defeat of Japan.40​
As I said, the same arguments being made for Russia here are equally applicable to the United States, and were stated in writing by the U.S. Military establishment in the WWII era.
 
We didn't have to be feared because without our allies, there was no need to fear us at all. Without the Soviet Union in the war, the conclusion of the U.S. Military is that we would lose the war against Nazi Germany. See Mark Stoler's Allies and Adversaries: The Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Grand Alliance, and U.S. Strategy in World War II, Page 72:

Eisenhower and his subordinates were far from alone or original in perceiving the overriding importance of continued Soviet participation in the war. As previously noted, in the summer and fall of 1941 Roosevelt and army planners had begun to recognize that victory over Germany might not be possible unless the Red Army continued to tie down the bulk of the Wehrmacht, and they consequently had made assistance to Russia a focal point of their global strategy. The JB had forcefully reiterated this conclusion by informing Roosevelt on December 21 that ‘‘Russia alone possesses the manpower potentially able to defeat Germany in Europe.’’ 26 The Soviets’ late 1941 success in stopping the German advance on Moscow and launching a counteroffensive, occurring at a time when Axis forces were everywhere else successful, further reinforced this belief. As a result virtually all Allied planning papers in late 1941– early 1942 stressed the critical importance of aiding the Russians so that they could survive a renewed German onslaught. Roosevelt agreed. ‘‘Nothing would be worse than to have the Russians collapse,’’ he told Treasury secretary Henry Morgenthau on March 11. ‘‘I would rather lose New Zealand, Australia, or anything else than have the Russians collapse.’’ Five days earlier the JUSSC had bluntly stated that ‘‘Russia must be supported now by every possible means’’ because the absence of a Russian front would postpone ‘‘indefinitely’’ the end of the war.27 And as army planners realized, such postponement would only increase public and naval pressure to turn away completely from the indecisive European theater in favor of the Pacific.​

Page 80:

Marshall’s reasoning was based not only on Eisenhower’s February–March presentations but also on military and political events since then which had heavily reinforced the OPD’s original conclusions. Once again the focal point was the Soviet Union. ‘‘The retention of Russia in the war as an active participant is vital to Allied victory,’’ now acting chief of staff McNarney had emphasized on April 12; if German armies were allowed to turn west, ‘‘any opportunity for a successful offensive against the European Axis would be virtually eliminated.’’ 56 In mid June the staff again warned that Russian collapse would necessitate a strategic reassessment, ‘‘possibly with the result of directing our main effort to the Pacific rather than the Atlantic.’’ 57​

Page 93:

As early as April–May, OPD, g-2, and the joint committees had begun to explore the appropriate response should this ‘‘desperate situation’’ result in a Soviet collapse, and in early August the JUSSC completed and forwarded to the JPS a massive study of such a contingency. This study indicated that Russian collapse would be a ‘‘catastrophe’’ of such magnitude as to put the United States in a ‘‘desperate’’ situation too, one in which it ‘‘would be forced to consider courses of action which would primarily benefit the United States rather than the United Nations.’’
Indeed, it might be the only remaining major member of the United Nations, because the British Commonwealth might collapse and the British public react to Soviet defeat by overthrowing Churchill and agreeing to a negotiated peace that would leave Hitler in control of Eurasia. A revival of isolationism and an ‘‘increase in defeatism’’ within the country were also possible in this scenario. Even without British withdrawal, however, the only sound U.S. response to a Soviet collapse would be to ‘‘adopt the strategic defensive in the European Theater of War and to conduct the strategic offensive in the Japanese theater.’’ On August 19 the JPS the great strategic debate 93 approved this report, forwarded it to the Joint Chiefs as JCS 85, and ordered the preparation of a strategic plan for the defeat of Japan.40​
As I said, the same arguments being made for Russia here are equally applicable to the United States, and were stated in writing by the U.S. Military establishment in the WWII era.

A really interesting scenario, of course, would be France and Britain making peace in late 1939 and then restarting the war against the Nazis with US support once the Nazis have invaded and conquered the Soviet Union. Completely unfeasible for multiple reasons, I know, but still an interesting thought experiment: Can France, Britain, and the US defeat a Nazi Germany that is already is full control of the Soviet Union?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong on WW2 but when Hitler decided that time is now he sent the best, most motivated and equipped to Russia?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong on WW2 but when Hitler decided that time is now he sent the best, most motivated and equipped to Russia?

Most of the Heer, yes. Defense spending as % of GDP was about 50/50 in 1942-1943. Point I'm making here, specifically for WWII, was that it was a coalition war; without any of the Big Three (US, UK and USSR), victory would be impossible; you can then take that into wider consideration of some of the claims being made.
 
Most of the Heer, yes. Defense spending as % of GDP was about 50/50 in 1942-1943. Point I'm making here, specifically for WWII, was that it was a coalition war; without any of the Big Three (US, UK and USSR), victory would be impossible; you can then take that into wider consideration of some of the claims being made.

Just how crucial was the UK relative to the US and the USSR? I mean other than for the fact that without the UK already being in the war, the US would likely not have entered the war at all?
 
Most of the Heer, yes. Defense spending as % of GDP was about 50/50 in 1942-1943. Point I'm making here, specifically for WWII, was that it was a coalition war; without any of the Big Three (US, UK and USSR), victory would be impossible; you can then take that into wider consideration of some of the claims being made.
So even after the purge when Stalin reversed course he still had motivated and skilled Russians survive a war of extermination to even win the race to Berlin they got to wave their flag over the Reichstag albeit with US/UK support while their allies in the West who still had their challenges didn't face the full might of the German army?
 
So even after the purge when Stalin reversed course he still had motivated and skilled Russians survive a war of extermination to even win the race to Berlin they got to wave their flag over the Reichstag albeit with US/UK support while their allies in the West who still had their challenges didn't face the full might of the German army?

Yes, the West faced the full might of the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine though. By 1944, however, they were facing the best of whats left of the Heer too; there was more Panzer Divisions in the West in 1944 than in the East. Fighting in Normandy and in Belgium that Winter was basically Eastern Front levels.
 
Snip.,

Presently, the US is decreasing its artillery ammunition stockpiles. In 2020, artillery ammunition purchases decreased by 36% to $425 million. In 2022, the plan is to reduce expenditure on 155mm artillery rounds to $174 million. This is equivalent to 75,357 M795 basic ‘dumb’ rounds for regular artillery, 1,400 XM1113 rounds for the M777, and 1,046 XM1113 rounds for Extended Round Artillery Cannons. Finally, there are $75 million dedicated for Excalibur precision-guided munitions that costs $176K per round, thus totaling 426 rounds. In short, US annual artillery production would at best only last for 10 days to two weeks of combat in Ukraine. If the initial estimate of Russian shells fired is over by 50%, it would only extend the artillery supplied for three weeks

So, you have a tweet referencing a statement made by someone else about industrial capacity. I'm trying to find that referenced 'two million a year' number for artillery shells Ukraine was producing for Russia up until 2014, and coming up dry.

If we take the numbers you provide here on American shell production, then do some math assuming similar production proportions, that gets us...

The Russians spending the equivalent of 10 billion, 867 million dollars annually buying artillery shells from the Ukraine. A quick bounce off of Wikipedia gives Russia's 2014 military budget as roughly 69.3 billion US$.

Do you really expect me to believe that Russia spent one sixth of its annual military budget just buying shells from Ukraine? And then manufactured even more in its own territory? Even if we make allowances for purchasing power parity making those shells cost, say, half as much to manufacture in Ukraine & Russia, you're still talking about an enormous proportion of their budget just building up these stockpiles, which is particularly odd given the Russian emphasis on rocket artillery.

All of this while doing a massive and very expensive modernization of its armor and air force?

The basic idea that Russia's military, with roughly 1/7th the budget of the US military, would be acquiring more than 50x the ammunition stretches credulity on the face of it. It isn't utterly out of the question if the Russian military really wanted to hyper-specialize, but I'm going to need more than a tweet referencing a message from someone else, that I can't track down the sourcing on at all.


Also, you seem to as usual have been cherry-picking time periods and sources regarding American military draw-downs.


Oh look, when Trump was in the White House they were working at building stockpiles of key munitions back up, and now that a Democrat is in the White House and the Dems control congress, they're trying to shrink the military budget again. When has that happened before?

...Every time political power has shifted hands in the last 60 or so years.

You keep acting like showing links of something I already agree has happened (decreased production in the US) somehow strengthens your overall argument, while the key disagreement (how has Russia's artillery shell production been?) you try to support your position with one apocryphal reference on Ukraine's shell production, and no actual numbers whatsoever on what Russia produces.

Given how I spent half an hour or so looking for actual hard numbers on Russia's artillery shell production, I'm not surprised you don't have any numbers on offer, but your entire argument hinges around this, so unless you can get those numbers, as usual, the whole thing falls flat.
 
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Man...I tend to forget what a joke Amnesty International is. Then I see stupidity like this:

‘Violating the laws of war’: Ukrainian military slammed for taking cover in ‘civilian structures’ (bizpacreview.com)

Especially when they don't say a thing about how the Palestinian terrorists operate.

I think it's one of those common things in war that you never want to happen, but happens with literally every military operation. Like taking cover in civilian structures. Sadly, War Crimes tend to be on a spectrum and always have been, unlike gender identity. *rimshot*
 
Man...I tend to forget what a joke Amnesty International is. Then I see stupidity like this:

‘Violating the laws of war’: Ukrainian military slammed for taking cover in ‘civilian structures’ (bizpacreview.com)

Especially when they don't say a thing about how the Palestinian terrorists operate.
Hypocrisy is a two way street I think when it comes to world affairs. The local head in Ukraine resigned over that.

 
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