Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[LindyAF]

The biggest thing Vader would need IMO is some allies from whom he can resupply and recruit. The Chiss Ascendency would make a lot of sense as an ally. As would potentially Mandalor - although Satine's pacifism might be a bad ideological fit.

That, I can readily agree with, especially when the urge to prevent Sidious from having his victory becomes a central part of Vader's agenda (which it certainly will).

His relationship with Palpatine would be interesting. Palpatine has of course wronged Vader in a lot of ways, but Vader might not know many of them at this point. Of course, he might just want to prevent Palpatine from creating the Empire / militarizing because Palpatine becomes much more of a threat to him at the head of an Empire.

I also think his interactions with Anakin and Padme and his feeling on Luke would be interesting. Vader's spent much of his life (and nearly all of it as Vader), believing that he killed his unborn children. Now he's had his son restored, decided (or would shortly decide) to try to take Luke on as his apprentice, kill Palpatine, and rule the Empire as father and son, giving him a direction and goal for the first time in nineteen years. And then he's been cast back in time, to before his son was born (and if Luke is born, Vader won't be his father). I could see him trying to take Anakin as his apprentice/heir, in surrogate of Luke and to ensure Palpatine won't have him as his apprentice. On the other hand, Vader has a lot of self hatred - that could complicate their interactions.

 

[BlackDragon98]

It would be interesting if Vader decided to set up camp on Dromond Kaas or one of the other forgotten Sith worlds like Ziost.

And then spread out from there.

Or maybe take a look at the Massassi temple on Yavin 4, have a chat with Exar Kun in the meantime.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Looks over at The Clone Wars.

*looks at literally every Jedi Padawan*

 

[ShadowArxxy]

EDIT: almost forgot. How big is Death Squadron at the time of the jump? How many ships, what type, etc?

Permanent strength was what we see in TESB: Executor and five escorting Imperial Star Destroyers, of which four are named: the ISD-I Devastator (i.e. the ISD from the first movie, Vader's personal flagship prior to Executor) and the ISD-IIs Avenger, Tyrant, and Ultimatum.

The Executor's role as the command ship over the Forest Moon heavily implies that the entire Imperial fleet guarding the Death Star II at Endor was a massively reinforced Death Squadron, although this is never explicitly stated. There's a couple of official references saying that was 27 ISDs plus Executor, however visual count from the film shows 32 directly countable on screen in at least one shot, plus Executor and at least one Tector class (named in OOC material as the Harbinger).

 

[LindyAF]

If Vader comes back while Plagueis is still around, him existing would probably cause a falling out between Plagueis and Sidious, as the most likely theory for both of them on who Vader is would be the other one's rogue apprentice. Especially since Vader will know things that only Plagueis/Sidious should know.

However, Vader himself presents a boogeyman to the Republic earlier than the TF, and arguably a bigger one in scope. Which might help Palpatine accelerate his plans.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Especially since Vader will know things that only Plagueis/Sidious should know.

Maybe. One of Sidious' long term disappointments with Vader was that for all his terrifying lethality as an enforcer, he was both fundamentally crippled *and* had little interest in Sith lore, knowledge, and plotting. He was *supposed to be* a more powerful replacement for Darth Tyrannus, but ended up being closer to a replacement Darth Maul.

 

[LindyAF]

Maybe. One of Sidious' long term disappointments with Vader was that for all his terrifying lethality as an enforcer, he was both fundamentally crippled *and* had little interest in Sith lore, knowledge, and plotting. He was *supposed to be* a more powerful replacement for Darth Tyrannus, but ended up being closer to a replacement Darth Maul.

I meant more banal stuff. Ancient Sith lore and alchemy is something that, hypothetically, a breakoff Sith sect in the unknown regions or a fallen jedi who picked up a holocron could know. Who Sidious and Plagueis' allies and connections are, where they've got stashes and hideouts, and details of their plans are something only Plagueis, Sidious, and any of their apprentices could know.

On what Sidious wanted out of Vader... I kind of could go either way on this. On the one hand, Sidious does make a comment in the movie about how Vader will be more powerful than him (before he is crippled), and it seems like a brag. And he does make some comments in some of the other media wishing Vader would plot to usurp him. But on the other hand, both of Sidious' prior apprentices, Maul and Tyrannus, were clearly tools rather than intended successors (even if Tyrannus thought he was a potential successor). And Vader seems to end up as a near perfect tool as well - having no remaining ambitions of his own (until he discovers that one of his children lives), with little desire to challenge Palpatine and fundamentally crippled so that even if he wanted to, he can't really surpass Palpatine, trapped in an intimidating but limiting suit of Palpatine's devising. In the alternate dark side ending to A Force Unleashed, Sidious has yet another apprentice he says could have been his equal... and he also ends up as a crippled enforcer.

 

[BlackDragon98]

I just realized something ridiculous about the Separatists and their droid army. (Legends canon)

Droidekas, Scorpnek annihilator droids, and other powerful, effective droid were all known to be very expensive so they were built in small quantities.

But when you think about it in economical terms, the aforementioned droids were expensive because they were built in small quantities.

Economy of scale would stretch out the fixed cost per droid, which is by the B1 and buzz droids were so cheap. Billions of them (if not tens of billions) were made.

For a bunch of megacorps, the Seppies are really shit at business. No wonder Sidious was able to manipulate them the way he did in Legends.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I just realized something ridiculous about the Separatists and their droid army. (Legends canon)

Droidekas, Scorpnek annihilator droids, and other powerful, effective droid were all known to be very expensive so they were built in small quantities.

But when you think about it in economical terms, the aforementioned droids were expensive because they were built in small quantities.

Economy of scale would stretch out the fixed cost per droid, which is by the B1 and buzz droids were so cheap. Billions of them (if not tens of billions) were made.

For a bunch of megacorps, the Seppies are really shit at business. No wonder Sidious was able to manipulate them the way he did in Legends.

I mean, a Lucrehulk can carry five million tons of cargo, going off the stats in Wookiepedia. Let's presume that a credit is equal to a dollar*.

Shipping a single Ton-Equivalent-Unit from China to the US is around a thousand dollars right now. But let's presume that due to economies of scale, the Trade Federation only charges a tenth that. 500 million credits per run, and given Star Wars speed, we can reasonably guess a run is a week at the outside, probably more likely a day or two given other travel times we've seen.

Five hundred million credits per week in profits lost per Lucrehulk. How many Lucrehulks did they send to blockade Naboo?

I count seventeen just in this picture alone. 8,500,000,000 credits a week right there. There are probably at least as many outside the camera encircling the planet. Seventeen billion credits, maybe three or four times that. All to blockade a minor planet they're not sure is legal in hopes of influencing trade route taxation for... reasons. With less conservative price estimates, they're pissing away the value of Apple and Amazon combined every day doing something they can't be sure is legal, does not appear to be generating any goodwill for them, and is bringing enemies down on their heads that terrify them.

Their business sense doesn't seem to be the best indeed.


*If you're wondering at my reasoning, a: it makes the math easy and b: a hamburger slider at Dex's Diner costs 6.7 credits so in the general range of what you'd pay for a soyburger in a diner in the US.

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

There's also to consider that these expensice droids might require some rare material they can't readily deliver which causes issues.

 

[LindyAF]

I just realized something ridiculous about the Separatists and their droid army. (Legends canon)

Droidekas, Scorpnek annihilator droids, and other powerful, effective droid were all known to be very expensive so they were built in small quantities.

But when you think about it in economical terms, the aforementioned droids were expensive because they were built in small quantities.

Economy of scale would stretch out the fixed cost per droid, which is by the B1 and buzz droids were so cheap. Billions of them (if not tens of billions) were made.

For a bunch of megacorps, the Seppies are really shit at business. No wonder Sidious was able to manipulate them the way he did in Legends.

Eh, while economies of scale would reduce the cost, it's entirely possible that more advanced droids required more advanced materials / components that are simply too expensive for them to serve as anything other than specialized or elite forces.

I generally think that any interpretation that just vast swathes of a fictional universe are retarded and are missing tons of low hanging fruit are silly. Of course, the Trade Fed is being advised by (and the Separatists run by) people who want them in conflict and want them to loose, so it's entirely possible they're making fairly bad choices, but I don't think we should assume it's run by people who just straight up can't multiply.

 

[LindyAF]

But let's presume that due to economies of scale, the Trade Federation only charges a tenth that. 500 million credits per run, and given Star Wars speed, we can reasonably guess a run is a week at the outside, probably more likely a day or two given other travel times we've seen.

The Star Wars travel time is interesting tbh. I felt like travel times in the Original Trilogy were meant to be longer - on the order of months. IIRC we don't get any hard data to confirm this (except the Star Wars measure of "parsecs" for a run we don't know the length of), but there's a lot of what felt to me like "soft" time skips. In ANH we get a scene of the characters getting to know each other on the Falcon that seemed to me like condensed time, and we also get the start of Luke's training, which seemed like more than his first lesson. And when Ben dies, it doesn't seem like Luke's reaction is to a mentor dying, not someone he knew for a week. And then in Empire, we get Luke doing his training under Yoda, which pretty much all takes place while Han and Leia are traveling, and seems like it must be at least a few months, minimum. There's also really no times IIRC in the Original Trilogy where Star Wars ships have to be particularly fast or we see them launch and arrive during the same event.

The Prequel Trilogy and other Star Wars doesn't hold to this at all though, but sometimes does the longer-feeling travel of the OT, which makes Star Wars speed seem really inconsistent.

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

I believe it's because the PT was in more peaceful times where they could use faster Hyperspeed lanes. The cast of OT had to stay off the grid, and that included the hyperspeed lanes. Heck, you can see this in Empire at War where Rebels are often forced to take longer trips because the fast lanes are controlled by Empire forces.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Well, there's kinda an out-of-character rule that the Seperatists weren't allowed to win.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Stupid rulez! I've actually been thinking about what would need to hppen to have the Seperatists become a true force to be reckoned with. One that ends up actually being able to resist some of the manipulation by Sidious and fight for independence and freedom from the Senate.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

Stupid rulez! I've actually been thinking about what would need to hppen to have the Seperatists become a true force to be reckoned with. One that ends up actually being able to resist some of the manipulation by Sidious and fight for independence and freedom from the Senate.

Dooku breaks the conditioning, or never got hooked by Sidious in the first place and instead is a true double agent or never was hooked and does it genuinely and is still being manipulated, but much more subtly.

 

[LindyAF]

Stupid rulez! I've actually been thinking about what would need to hppen to have the Seperatists become a true force to be reckoned with. One that ends up actually being able to resist some of the manipulation by Sidious and fight for independence and freedom from the Senate.

competent!TradeFed never needs to actually fight the Senate - they're probably better served by just buying it out. Like, the Republic prior to the Clone Wars was a corrupt mess wasn't it? That's not exactly the sort of environment a monopolistic megacorp suffers in. Unless the Trade Fed is a Outer-Rim based megacorp at loggerheads with more politically powerful Core World megacorps.

Dooku breaks the conditioning, or never got hooked by Sidious in the first place and instead is a true double agent or never was hooked and does it genuinely and is still being manipulated, but much more subtly.

Or just realizes that he's the fall guy and starts trying to win it for real. IIRC Sidious and Dooku had to do a lot more managing to make sure the Separatists didn't steamroll the Republic early on than they did preventing the Republic from doing too well against the Separatists.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Stupid rulez! I've actually been thinking about what would need to hppen to have the Seperatists become a true force to be reckoned with. One that ends up actually being able to resist some of the manipulation by Sidious and fight for independence and freedom from the Senate.

Seppies would have won the war in a year.

They had some of the best commanders in the galaxy, an infinite army in the form of droids, and organic allies to fill in the gaps like the Nimbus Commandos under Alto Stratus and Mandalorian Protectors under former ARC trooper "Spar".

I mean, how the shit do you lose a war when you have infinite droid army and navy, and commanders like Grievous (Dark Horse comics version, not the shitty TCW version), Sev'rance Tann (Force Sensitive Rule 63 Thrawn), and Tofen Vane (Force Sensitive Fighter Ace that killed over a dozen Jedi and their Padawans in dogfights over the course of a few short months and the only fighter ace that could defeat Anakin Skywalker in a dogfight)?

 

[Bacle]

Seppies would have won the war in a year.

They had some of the best commanders in the galaxy, an infinite army in the form of droids, and organic allies to fill in the gaps like the Nimbus Commandos under Alto Stratus and Mandalorian Protectors under former ARC trooper "Spar".

I mean, how the shit do you lose a war when you have infinite droid army and navy, and commanders like Grievous (Dark Horse comics version, not the shitty TCW version), Sev'rance Tann (Force Sensitive Rule 63 Thrawn), and Tofen Vane (Force Sensitive Fighter Ace that killed over a dozen Jedi and their Padawans in dogfights over the course of a few short months and the only fighter ace that could defeat Anakin Skywalker in a dogfight)?

Seppies also could have been very useful against the Vong later on.

The NR could have saved itself a lot of grief if anyone had though to go reactivate some of the old Seppie droid foundries on Geonosis and started pumping out droideka's, supers, vulture droids, and those droid gunships.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Stupid rulez! I've actually been thinking about what would need to hppen to have the Seperatists become a true force to be reckoned with. One that ends up actually being able to resist some of the manipulation by Sidious and fight for independence and freedom from the Senate.

One of the most interesting alternate universe / time travel fanfics I've seen for the prequel era is one where Obi-Wan time travels from early into his exile on Tatooine, to around the beginning of the Clone Wars. Since he's aware of the whole, "Emperor Palpatine is Darth Sidious, the Clone Wars were entirely stage managed to get him into power", he decides to that the best way to ruin Sidious' plan is for him to resign from the Jedi Order and then openly join the CIS, with the intent of hijacking it out from under Sidious.

He also goes out of the way to capture as many Clones and Jedi as possible and to treat the prisoners with perfect kindness and adherence to the rules of war, but also gleefully causes a major political crisis by offering to ransom them back for fixed price rates.