Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[ShadowArxxy]

I just rewatched that scene in Return of the Jedi, it looks like Luke Skywalker scored more than a moral victory when he refused to kill his Father. Apparently his Father actually betrayed Palpatine soon afterwards and pitched him down the infinite pit of (almost) death whilst Palps was frying Luke.

Apparently there was this subtle theme of Luke Skywalker wanting to redeem his Father and sensing the good in him that was foreshadowed earlier in the films, to the point that Obi Wan fatalistically stated the "Emperor has already won," when Luke said he couldn't kill his Father.

Anyone else pick up on this?

Strangely enough, I seem to have explicitly pointed out both Vader’s heel-face turn and the Jedi being wrong in trying to get Like to kill Vader in my post.

 

[Skallagrim]

Anyway, @Bacle wanted "Space Chernobyl", and it seems someone else wanted it, too. And used AI to give us an impression.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

Yeah, certainly no fan of the Sequels, but it amuses me when viewers complain about Finn and his comrades riding horses as they charge headlong into turret fire during the Battle of Exegol — all while not saying a peep about the Emperor’s “best troops” being beaten back by fury, knee-high primitives on a forest moon they literally set up the Death Star II’s shield generator on.

Granted, it’s Star Wars, which has many insensible conceits that make more for fun storytelling than exhaustively thought-out realism. Still, if a fighting force like the US Military could’ve spotted the Ewok tribes and crushed them with contemptuous ease, then surely, a space-age superpower that commanded a galaxy’s worth of resources should’ve been able to do so while barely lifting a finger. Well, Stormtrooper incompetence notwithstanding, anyway. 😉

Shrug. For me, while certainly isn't as bad as it's played up as, I still find Finn and comrades a visually funny sight that just seems to be there because they wanted it to be there. While in ROTJ the fact the Empire's hubris was their own undoing neglecting the Ewoks as non-threatening in part because they're just Teddy Bears instead of Wookies allowing the heroes to recruit them fits with the Empire's flaws and Star Wars pulp roots.

Admittedly I tend to view Stormtroopes as more of an "SS" or ideological-driven force meant to look intimidating and unflinchingly carrying out the orders of their superior rather than being a practical fighting unit. So them being crap in an actual encounter which isn't heavily lopsided in their favor I don't find quite so suspension of disbelief breaking.

— The film opens, not with the droids, but with Leia's attempt to save Han. This fails, as in the actual film.

While I certainly understand giving us a scene with Luke and Yoda I was curious why you'd change the order of Leia and C-3PO's attempt. To me at least it doesn't really seem to change anything.

— After the rescue of Han, our heroes go directly to rendez-vous with the Rebel fleet, where Mon Mothma tells them about the Imperial conference. Thanks to many brave Bothans who gave their lives to get this information to the Rebels, they now have a chance to strike a critical blow at the Empire: killing their entire high command in one fell swoop. It's a unique chance, and all the more vital because if the Imperials instead get the time to prepare a greater anti-rebel campaign, the Rebel Alliance will almost certainly be destroyed.

I suppose I have two thoughts here. The larger one is shifting from stopping a superweapon/ bringing the fight to the Evil Emperor to a more Dirty Dozen esque let's eliminate the entire command staff of the Empire with a surgical strike/commando raid during a strategic planning session seems a step down in grandeur compared to the original.

I guess my other is if we remove the superweapon aspect, why do the Imperials need a giant, half finished starbase out in the hinterland. Wouldn't it make more sense for such a meeting to be conducted deep in Imperial territory with the lavish creature comforts men of such high rank and standing would expect?

 

[Skallagrim]

While I certainly understand giving us a scene with Luke and Yoda I was curious why you'd change the order of Leia and C-3PO's attempt. To me at least it doesn't really seem to change anything.

My main reasoning is that Luke's plan, as presented in the film, is stupidly convoluted. If we start with Leia carrying out her own attempt because Luke is still off training, then at least her getting captured isn't also part of the plan. (She feared permanent damage to Han's nervous systems because of the carbonite, so she refused to wait. Understandable, but Luke now knows that striking before you're ready is a mistake.)

Luke showing up as he does is now also implied to be more of a quick adaptation to the fact that Leia has been captured, rather than representing the original plan. He gets the droids in to ensure there's a weapon within range (has sabre hidden inside Artoo), gets Lando in to offer extra support, and then he confront Jabba himself. It's still pretty convoluted, but I feel it makes more sense this way.

I suppose I have two thoughts here. The larger one is shifting from stopping a superweapon/ bringing the fight to the Evil Emperor to a more Dirty Dozen esque let's eliminate the entire command staff of the Empire with a surgical strike/commando raid during a strategic planning session seems a step down in grandeur compared to the original.

Mainly, I want to avoid "oh, another Death Star". The tension is supposed to come from the revelation that

I guess my other is if we remove the superweapon aspect, why do the Imperials need a giant, half finished starbase out in the hinterland. Wouldn't it make more sense for such a meeting to be conducted deep in Imperial territory with the lavish creature comforts men of such high rank and standing would expect?

Because it's a trap.

They don't need an out-of-the-way location at all. They specifically chose it so that the Rebels would feel confident launching an all-out attack with everything they've got. And then (it's implied) they actually allowed the information to leak. Result: the REbels attack, and get wiped out. It wasn't a conference to decide how to defeat the Rebels at all. It was always a ploy to defeat the Rebels there and then.

It fails because of Palpatine's (and the Empire's) hubris. The idea of their Wookiee slaves successfully revolting and defeating their crack troops never even occurred to them. Nor did the notion that even after they trapped and outnumbered the Rebel fleet, a number of Rebel fighters would still get through and be able to strike at the station. And the idea of Luke outright refusing the Dark Side and Vader turning on his Master? Unthinkable, to Palpatine.

 

[Zyobot]

I think the fundamental idea of the Ewoks, a primitive tribe getting the drop on a more advanced force and using their knowledge of terrain to defeat them, is not crucially flawed.

But it would have worked far better if they’d gone with the initial draft and used Wookies.

Probably, especially since Wookiees are not only physically hardier, but (as we got glimpses of in Episode III) also battle-hardened and technologically sophisticated enough to give the Imperials more trouble than some Zulu tribe would've given the modern US Military (which is pretty much what I view OTL Battle of Endor as, Alliances forces notwithstanding).

Of course, I wonder if using Wookiees instead would've butterflied Kashyyyk as their homeworld? True, a species can establish settlements on more planets than just the one they evolved on, but in an ATL where Lucas went with Wookiees, it must've just been easier to cast Endor as the Wookiee homeworld instead. But now, I'm segueing into a separate issue.

It was apparently not financially feasible. I don't know what the exact issue was. But as far as plot is concerned, you're certainly right. I've suggested the same thing, as have others before us. my suggestions (somewhat edited since I first posted them a few years ago):


— The film opens, not with the droids, but with Leia's attempt to save Han. This fails, as in the actual film.

— We then cut to Luke on Dagobah, completing his own light-sabre. This indicates he's been there for a while, training, with Yoda teaching him how to be a Jedi. Vader calls out to him through the Force, urging Luke to join the Dark Side, much as in one of the actual deleted scenes for RotJ. Luke resists, which proves that he has the mental power required of a Jedi.

— Luke is preparing, so that he'll be ready to rescue Han from Jabba's palace (unlike his half-cocked rescue attempt in ESB; we see he has learned from his mistake).

— Yoda dies. It's made explicit that Yoda feels that he is being called to become one with the Force, and that it is now time for a new generation to assume its place of responsibility in the galaxy. He tells Luke that he (Yoda) has nothing left to teach him (rather than Luke "needing no more teaching"), and implies that the wise never stop learning. Now it is Yoda's own time to learn a greater mystery: he passes peacefuly into the Force. Luke, his training as a Jedi Knight complete, departs from Dagobah.

— The film then shows us the Imperials preparing for a committee of the Grand Moffs with Vader and the Emperor. The Rebels have become more bold since the destruction of the Death Star, and the previous attempt to definitively root them out (such as on Hoth) have failed. It's time to set in motion a campaign to wipe the Rebellion away completely. The Emperor is willing to allocate all means necessary to this, and will hear the suggestions of the Grand Moffs at a secret conference to be held on a space station orbiting the forest moon of the gas giant Endor. (This is an out-of-the-way location, and ideal for such a secret meeting.)

— No second Death Star is at any point involved. Imagine the space station more like a super-sized version of a Golan weapons platform.

— We cut to Tatooine. The droids arrive, and are "given" to Jabba by Luke, via hologram. (Threepio, upon seeing Leia enslaved by Jabba, can exclaim something about how he "just knew they should have waited for Master Luke!" or something to that effect.) We see that Lando has sneakily infiltrated the ranks of Jabba's guards already. Then the Twi'lek dancer tries to kill Jabba, and is thrown in the Rancor pit.

— Vader arrives on the space station and threatens Moff Jerjerrod. Everything has to be ready in time.

— Luke arrives at Jabba's palace. I'd tighten up the whole Palace sequence a bit, so that it drags on a little less. In particular, Jabba's 'court' and all of the bizarre figures there can easily be toned down just a bit. Make it less 'The Muppets', and slightly more serious and threatening. No silly musical numbers!

— Han should get his sight back in time to fight Boba Fett on the skiff, which ends with Boba Fett getting shot and falling into the Sarlacc pit. (But this could and should be a really cool gunfight.)

— After the rescue of Han, our heroes go directly to rendez-vous with the Rebel fleet, where Mon Mothma tells them about the Imperial conference. Thanks to many brave Bothans who gave their lives to get this information to the Rebels, they now have a chance to strike a critical blow at the Empire: killing their entire high command in one fell swoop. It's a unique chance, and all the more vital because if the Imperials instead get the time to prepare a greater anti-rebel campaign, the Rebel Alliance will almost certainly be destroyed.

— Arriving on the forest moon, must destroy the shield generator protecting the space station where the Imperial leaders are gathered. They discover the moon is used as a slave labour camp, where the Imperials are using Wookiee slaves to mine valuable resources. (They're slavers and they're strip-mining a nature preserve! Pure evil!)

— Chewie can play a key part in helping the heroes infiltrate the Imperial camp. Since Han once risked his life to save Chewie, they can convince the Wookiee slaves that the Rebels truly want to help them. A slave reolt ensues, and lots of Imperial guards get their arms ripped off.

— Thing go largely the same, with Luke going to confront his father after telling Leia the truth. Palpatine gloats to him that the whole conference isn't a meeting to decide on a strategy against the Rebels: it is the strategy, because it's a trap.

— Through a hard-fought battle, the heroes down on the surface get to the shield generator... only to discover an additional cohort of crack troops waiting for them. A desperate battle follows.

— The Rebels fleet arrives as planned, only to find the station's shields still active. The station is also far better-armed than expected. (Palpatine gloats that while it's no Death Star, it has cannons that can blow up capital ships). The Rebel strategy was actually to bring along Interdictors to stop more Imperial ships from arriving, but Palpatine has the Interdictors blown up first.

— Immediately, an Imperial war-fleet jumps out of hyperspace to ambush the Rebels. A massive space battle ensues.

— This plays out pretty much as in the actual film, with Han, Leia, the Rebel ground forces and the Wookiees eventually destroying the shield generator. In space, a few Rebel pilots in smaller ships (the Falcon, piloted by Lando, and a group of fighters led by Wedge) can get past the large Imperial ships and fly into the bowels of the space station. (I imagine it still-unfinished, much like the DS-II.)

— The throne room duel plays out exactly the same, with Luke then taking his father's body back to the surface (after getting off the station just in time). The Empire's high command is utterly vanquished, leaving our heroes hopeful for the future. I'd otherwise keep the ending just as it is (except with Wookiees instead of Ewoks, and with no 'special edition' shots of celebrations on other planets).

Seems like a viable ATL outline to me. Honestly, though, I'm mostly content with how Episode VI turned out IOTL and see little need to change it otherwise.

I don't really object to there being a Death Star II, both because the setting tends to be odd that way and because the audience would find a (mostly) rebuilt Death Star much more frightening than a gargantuan Golan Weapons Platform from a cinematic standpoint. After all, they already watched the first one obliterate Alderaan, so it raises the stakes for there to be a bigger, better one in the works that'll threaten to do the same to other worlds unless it's also destroyed. Granted, I know the Death Star II only got to take out one capital ship instead of an actual planet (or even moon) IOTL, but still.

Lastly, while I find most of the special-edition edits a bit superfluous, I'd make an exception for the shots of other worlds celebrating at the end, since it reinforces what a profound victory the Rebels scored by showing the audience how the rest of the Galaxy took the news. Because ultimately, the shockwave didn't stop at Endor, and had Lucas produced his own Sequel Trilogy apart from the EU as we know it, I think it could've set things up for a (mostly) triumphant restoration of the Republic down the line.

That's all just me riffing, though. Generally open to alternatives people might have, though as it stands, I apparently have less gripes and quibbles with how the films turned out than most of those who've replied here, which is... interesting to me.

 

[Bacle]

Anyway, @Bacle wanted "Space Chernobyl", and it seems someone else wanted it, too. And used AI to give us an impression.

Wow, that's really neat; see, told people the market for more serious Rogue One/Andor type story telling in Star Wars is massive and only growing.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

My main reasoning is that Luke's plan, as presented in the film, is stupidly convoluted. If we start with Leia carrying out her own attempt because Luke is still off training, then at least her getting captured isn't also part of the plan. (She feared permanent damage to Han's nervous systems because of the carbonite, so she refused to wait. Understandable, but Luke now knows that striking before you're ready is a mistake.)

Luke showing up as he does is now also implied to be more of a quick adaptation to the fact that Leia has been captured, rather than representing the original plan. He gets the droids in to ensure there's a weapon within range (has sabre hidden inside Artoo), gets Lando in to offer extra support, and then he confront Jabba himself. It's still pretty convoluted, but I feel it makes more sense this way.

Oh I wouldn't disagree with the convoluted. Pretty sure the idea was having Luke being captured and placed on almost a literal cliff hanger ending only to escape thanks to "brilliant" foresight and then worked backwards through the scene to get everything in place.

I certainly don't have anything against Leia being a spanner in the works to Luke's plan but just like with Lando already infiltrating Jabba's palace I'm not sure the order of her and R2 and C-3PO affects that. She could still be motivated by Han's health and think Luke's plan is taking too long to put together and decided to try her own attempt after we open on R2 and largely clueless C-3PO.

Personally I like the idea that Leia was supposed to join Jabba's gang as a bounty hunter like Lando, so Luke would have allies waiting in the wings if needed, only for her concern for Han caused her to blow the whole thing by trying to do it on her own. Give a nice contrast between the more seasoned Luke and the headstrong Leia who's showing off some of her father's act first, think later tendencies.

Mainly, I want to avoid "oh, another Death Star". The tension is supposed to come from the revelation that

Eh, the DSII is unimaginative but for something that is ultimately just a trap I think it works. Ideally you'd want some other super weapon, some other fiendish plot that larger than life. A Star-Killer or World-Devastator.

To me going off to assassinate a bunch of bureaucrats and generals feels like it should be more of a "Rogue One" type story of unsung heroes rather than the conclusion to a trilogy.

Because it's a trap.

They don't need an out-of-the-way location at all.

But wouldn't the Rebels see-through it if the only reason the Imperials would have to pick such a location would be to bait them? In ROTJ it made sense. The DSII was a secret project the Emperor was personally visiting. It had to be out of the way because that's the only place it could be built.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Give a nice contrast between the more seasoned Luke and the headstrong Leia who's showing off some of her father's act first, think later tendencies.

Taking that into consideration, realising that she throttled Jabba to death puts a smile on the face. “Lady Vader” indeed.

 

[Zyobot]

Taking that into consideration, realising that she throttled Jabba to death puts a smile on the face. “Lady Vader” indeed.

That’s a mental image I could’ve gone without recollecting, so thanks for that.

Otherwise, real interesting how @Crom's Black Blade notes that the twins are the “reverse” of their parents personality-wise. Luke inheriting the compassion and understanding nature of Padmé, and Leia — loathe as she’d be to acknowledge it — the willfulness and headstrong temperament of Anakin. Wouldn’t expect them to be direct expies of their parents, of course, though still an interesting connection to make for those who spotted it when the Prequels first came out. 🧐

 

[Skallagrim]

Of course, I wonder if using Wookiees instead would've butterflied Kashyyyk as their homeworld? True, a species can establish settlements on more planets than just the one they evolved on, but in an ATL where Lucas went with Wookiees, it must've just been easier to cast Endor as the Wookiee homeworld instead. But now, I'm segueing into a separate issue.

Kashyyyk had been introduced as the Wookiee homeworld in the holiday special. In the original draft for RotJ, it wasn't Endor-as-the-Wookiee-homeworld, but rather Death-Star-built-in-orbit-over-Kashyyyk.

Seems like a viable ATL outline to me. Honestly, though, I'm mostly content with how Episode VI turned out IOTL and see little need to change it otherwise.

Fair enough. I like RotJ, too. I just like the mental exercise of re-writing stories. RotJ is one of those cases where I see room for improvement, but it's not something that absolutely needed. (As opposed to, say, the sequel trilogy-- which would have to be completely re-imagined to be remotely enjoyable to me.)

while I find most of the special-edition edits a bit superfluous, I'd make an exception for the shots of other worlds celebrating at the end, since it reinforces what a profound victory the Rebels scored by showing the audience how the rest of the Galaxy took the news. Because ultimately, the shockwave didn't stop at Endor, and had Lucas produced his own Sequel Trilogy apart from the EU as we know it, I think it could've set things up for a (mostly) triumphant restoration of the Republic down the line.

Sure. Of course, I'd view my own proposed alterations in the context of the original EU, more-or-less, because I really like that continuity.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Right, Palpatine’s logic with the whole Luke/Vader thing is that it was supposed to be a guaranteed win for him.

Vader and Palpatine successfully turn Luke to the Dark Side: Win. Breaks the Rule of Two but Sidious doesn’t actually care about that since his long term plan is the Eternal Sith thing anyway.

Luke refuses to turn, Vader strikes him down: Win. Vader has literally killed the last vestiges of Anakin Skywalker and extinguished any ambivalence that ever remained in his embrace of the Dark Side.

Luke turns, strikes Vader down: Win. Traded in crippled Sith Apprentice for shiny new model.

“Luke doesn’t turn AND Vader turns back to the Light Side" wasn’t a possibility that Sidious considered possible, and to be fair, Yoda and Obi-wan both ALSO considered it impossible, explicitlyinsisting that the Emperor would have "already won" if Luke refused to follow their plan and strike down Vader.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Right, Palpatine’s logic with the whole Luke/Vader thing is that it was supposed to be a guaranteed win for him.

Vader and Palpatine successfully turn Luke to the Dark Side: Win. Breaks the Rule of Two but Sidious doesn’t actually care about that since his long term plan is the Eternal Sith thing anyway.

Luke refuses to turn, Vader strikes him down: Win. Vader has literally killed the last vestiges of Anakin Skywalker and extinguished any ambivalence that ever remained in his embrace of the Dark Side.

Luke turns, strikes Vader down: Win. Traded in crippled Sith Apprentice for shiny new model.

“Luke doesn’t turn AND Vader turns back to the Light Side" wasn’t a possibility that Sidious considered possible, and to be fair, Yoda and Obi-wan both ALSO considered it impossible, explicitlyinsisting that the Emperor would have "already won" if Luke refused to follow their plan and strike down Vader.

could not have said things better. Though I should note, the above is always the reason why I scratch my head when Lucas says the jedi were 100% in the right. Then again it wouldn't be the first time Lucas has tried to revise and memory hole is old history (looks at the special edition)

 

[ShadowArxxy]

could not have said things better. Though I should note, the above is always the reason why I scratch my head when Lucas says the jedi were 100% in the right. Then again it wouldn't be the first time Lucas has tried to revise and memory hole is old history (looks at the special edition)

The Jedi were 100% wrong all along. While they meant well, it was their grossly abusive *mishandling* of Anakin’s completely normal and reasonable attachments that made him vulnerable to the Dark, and it was Luke’s attachment to his father (and vice versa) that ultimately allowed for Anakin’s redemption and through it the salvation of the entire Galaxy Far, Far Away.

While the Empire and the Sith were the ones who were actually maliciously evil, the Jedi literally created the Sith and set up the entire universe for failure with their flawed philosophy. Good story, absolutely terrible monks.

 

[S'task]

The Jedi were 100% wrong all along. While they meant well, it was their grossly abusive *mishandling* of Anakin’s completely normal and reasonable attachments that made him vulnerable to the Dark, and it was Luke’s attachment to his father (and vice versa) that ultimately allowed for Anakin’s redemption and through it the salvation of the entire Galaxy Far, Far Away.

While the Empire and the Sith were the ones who were actually maliciously evil, the Jedi literally created the Sith and set up the entire universe for failure with their flawed philosophy. Good story, absolutely terrible monks.

Going by the EU it wasn't per se the Jedi were wrong, it's that Odan-Urr was an alien for whom he didn't actually understand emotions present in other species, as his species was noted explicitly for having lessened emotions and high level telepathy. He's the one who put together the Jedi Code that is used even in Disney canon, which is at the root of the problems you're talking about:

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

This version of the code, while meant to clarify things, actually in the end led to Jedi practicing denial of emotions and attachments rather than mastery over them, simply because the simplistic reading encourages that. Contrast that to the earlier, pre-Odan-Urr form:

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

This version takes more thought to parse (which is why the Jedi favored Odan-Urr's version, it didn't take thinking about. But the core aspect of it is that it doesn't have the built in denials that Odan-Urr's version has, rather it acknowledges them and then places them in context. But that's the difficult part for people: building and understanding that context. It takes more effort and more time, whereas Odan-Urr's version is basically an easy legalistic text to follow. So of course an institution would adopt it, it's easier to teach and enforce, even if, in the end, it leads to more people succumbing to the Dark Side...

 

[ShadowArxxy]

In character, yes. Out of character, it comes down to George Lucas basing the Jedi on adapting Eastern philosophical concepts that he never really understood (he was, after all, a filmmaker and not a monk or martial artist).

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

I get Palpatine not expecting Vader to turn back to the light side, everyone basically dismissed that even as a possibility. But I don't know why he didn't expect Vader and Luke to team up. I mean killing Palpatine seems like the perfect Father-Son Sith bonding ritual for them and it isn't like turning to the dark side compels loyalty. Every Sith Master got his job by killing his predecessor after all.

Palpatine knows Vader originally fell to the Darkside in a desperate attempt to save Padme and his unborn family. Now He's forcing Vader to either die or kill his son. I mean I get that killing Luke would mean Vader has completely destroyed Anakin but that just seems like a remote outcome with Anakin wanting to save his son and Vader wanting to kill Palpatine for both personal and Sith reasons. If anything it seems like it would be exactly the thing to get both the former Jedi and Sith on the same page.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

In character, yes. Out of character, it comes down to George Lucas basing the Jedi on adapting Eastern philosophical concepts that he never really understood (he was, after all, a filmmaker and not a monk or martial artist).

Pretty much. The Jedi are, ironically enough, basically stereotypical samurai reimagined in science fantasy. Stereotypical in the sense of being idealized by Tokugawa and early-modern Japanese propagandists.

If anything, the Sith are closer to how the historical samurai were like. Basically, the likes of Oda Nobunaga, Takeda Shingen, or Uesugi Kenshin. Ruthless and bloody-handed warlords for whom honor wasn't about serving some nebulous greater good or the people or altruistic higher ideal, but about achieving their ambitions without letting themselves get swayed or side-tracked along the way. Hell, you know how modern Japanese media frequently gives Oda Nobunaga the title of 'Demon King'? Historically true: Oda Nobunaga referred to himself to the Demon King of the Sixth Circle of Hell, Mara, after Takeda Shingen proclaimed himself Buddhism's protector in Japan.

Not that it wasn't unearned. Oda Nobunaga became especially infamous for the Massacre of Mount Hiei, when the armed monks of the mountain refused to surrender. Oda Nobunaga's response was to turn the entire mountain into a funeral pyre for thousands of men, women, and children. There's a reason modern Japanese historians sum up his character with a single sentence, "if the cuckoo doesn't sing, kill it."

 

[Husky_Khan]

Not that it wasn't unearned. Oda Nobunaga became especially infamous for the Massacre of Mount Hiei, when the armed monks of the mountain refused to surrender. Oda Nobunaga's response was to turn the entire mountain into a funeral pyre for thousands of men, women, and children. There's a reason modern Japanese historians sum up his character with a single sentence, "if the cuckoo doesn't sing, kill it."

I recall stumbling upon the early Newgrounds Flash Game Samurai Asshole where you portray a Samurai who goes on a revenge killing spree after his Master chokes to death on a chicken bone while enjoying the hospitality of a peaceful Monastery. Despite the peaceful apologies and attempts at recompense by the Monks, the first part of the Flash Game has you brutally kill them all as honor demands!

Didn't realize it was based on true events.

Oops wrong smiley. 😲

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Pretty much. The Jedi are, ironically enough, basically stereotypical samurai reimagined in science fantasy. Stereotypical in the sense of being idealized by Tokugawa and early-modern Japanese propagandists.

It's really not ironic at all given that the original Star Wars is very heavily based on Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

It's really not ironic at all given that the original Star Wars is very heavily based on Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress.

True, I suppose. That, and while the Jedi aren't really a match for the samurai of the Sengoku Period, could match the samurai of the late Tokugawa Era. You know, scholar-bureaucrats and secret police of the Galactic Senate Tokugawa Shogunate...although from the Meiji Restoration onward, the (officially-dissolved) samurai class again resembles the Sith more than they do the Jedi.