United States US presidential election 2024

[The Whispering Monk]

Oil refineries produce fuel that is a cornerstone of civilian infrastructure.
The distribution of all goods, particularly food, relies on oil refineries.
Also helps for electricity production to provide heat in the winter.

Yes it is also used by the military.
The military also consumes food, water, clothing, and electricity for heating in the winter so you do not freeze to death. None of those things are military products just because the military consumes them.

Fuel is not a military target, it is a civilian target that the military needs.
By claiming it is a military target you are being dishonest.

This is a major escalation towards Total War.
Don't be dishonest and admit what is going on.

This is, possibly, the single dumbest take on war.

You have missed it somehow. For Ukraine and Russia, this is already total war.

 

[strunkenwhite]

And how about Russia stop hitting Ukrainian energy and oil and food and such.

WHY DO YOU NEVER TELL RUSSIA TO STOP.

What the fuck are you talking about. Everyone in the west tells Russia to stop, all the time. It doesn't matter because Russia doesn't care: it isn't getting its war material from the west.

 

[Poe]

Putin endorsed Biden like come on.

Thought Carlson didn't help

lmao he did not. I don't know who Putin actually supports deep down but its almost certainly Trump since the two had good relations and Trump wants to prevent any aid to Ukraine. Him saying he prefers Biden was an obvious troll and I hope no one is pretending to actually have believed that.

US Slams Strikes on Russia Oil Refineries as Risk to Oil Markets

Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin warned that Ukraine’s recent attacks on Russian oil refineries risk impacting global energy markets and urged the country to focus on military targets instead.

www.bloomberg.com

The Biden Admin have SecDef Lloyd Austin asking Ukraine to stop hitting the Russian oil infrastructure, because of it's impacts on oil markets.

Says they should only focus on 'military' targets, as is oil refineries aren't valid military targets when they are in enemy nations and fund the enemy nation's war effort.

The fucking clown show in the Biden admin is getting worse every day.

I don't know what to tell you, this is the best you are going to get from the US. When Biden is replaced with Trump support for Ukraine is going to halt and he is going to push for a negotiated settlement.

 

[Bacle]

What the fuck are you talking about. Everyone in the west tells Russia to stop, all the time. It doesn't matter because Russia doesn't care: it isn't getting its war material from the west.

I was specifically talking about mrttao in that post, not the west in general.

lmao he did not. I don't know who Putin actually supports deep down but its almost certainly Trump since the two had good relations and Trump wants to prevent any aid to Ukraine. Him saying he prefers Biden was an obvious troll and I hope no one is pretending to actually have believed that.

I don't know what to tell you, this is the best you are going to get from the US. When Biden is replaced with Trump support for Ukraine is going to halt and he is going to push for a negotiated settlement.

This is not the best we can get from the US, this is pathetic, and is Biden/Obama/the Dems/radical environmental groups and DC reaping the whirlwind from making it so no one wants to open a new refinery in the US, or much of anywhere in the west, for more than a decade now.

 

[49ersfootball]

Yeah, we all have our anecdotes. But when it comes to hard evidence, California had both Nixon and Reagan as governors. Later it had a moderate Republican governor - Arnold.

Would there be even a tiny chance of even a RINO winning California now? Texas is turning purple, not in the upcoming election but likely in 2028 it will a swing state.

I’m not saying that Hispanics becoming conservative is impossible, but it’s a lie that the GOP has been burned on for 40 years. We should at least be a bit skeptical of such claims.

Abbott will still be Governor by 2028.

 

[49ersfootball]

Lloyd Austin has just plain sucked.

Since Biden is going down in flames in November, Austin will remain as US Defense Secretary until January 20th, 2025.

 

[49ersfootball]

lmao he did not. I don't know who Putin actually supports deep down but its almost certainly Trump since the two had good relations and Trump wants to prevent any aid to Ukraine. Him saying he prefers Biden was an obvious troll and I hope no one is pretending to actually have believed that.

I don't know what to tell you, this is the best you are going to get from the US. When Biden is replaced with Trump support for Ukraine is going to halt and he is going to push for a negotiated settlement.

Assuming Trump wins in November, expect a strong vicious backlash against GOPers in 2026.

 

[Poe]

I was specifically talking about mrttao in that post, not the west in general.


This is not the best we can get from the US, this is pathetic, and is Biden/Obama/the Dems/radical environmental groups and DC reaping the whirlwind from making it so no one wants to open a new refinery in the US, or much of anywhere in the west, for more than a decade now.

I didn't say it was the best you *could* get, I said it's the best you will get because Biden is the more hawkish of the two candidates.

Assuming Trump wins in November, expect a strong vicious backlash against GOPers in 2026.

We shall see

 

[LordsFire]

Oil refineries produce fuel that is a cornerstone of civilian infrastructure.
The distribution of all goods, particularly food, relies on oil refineries.
Also helps for electricity production to provide heat in the winter.

Yes it is also used by the military.
The military also consumes food, water, clothing, and electricity for heating in the winter so you do not freeze to death. None of those things are military products just because the military consumes them.

Fuel is not a military target, it is a civilian target that the military needs.
By claiming it is a military target you are being dishonest.

This is a major escalation towards Total War.
Don't be dishonest and admit what is going on.

Yes, civilians use oil too.

However, civilians and military use pretty much every basic supply and good, so by this logic, everything except for actual tank factories doesn't count as a military target.

That's not how war works, or has ever worked. Stopping the fuel supply is one of the quickest and most efficient mechanisms for stopping the enemy. Despite massive bombing campaigns against military factories during WWII, Germany was hurt more ultimately by their lack of fuel than by damage to military factories. Japan's war effort was crippled by their lack of fuel as well.

If you don't want your fuel infrastructure bombed, don't start wars of aggression, and especially don't go into them with genocidal rhetoric.

Oil wells and refineries have been treated as legitimate targets in war basically since we moved off of coal-fired engines.

 

[mrttao]

Much as the industrial heartlands of the Reich were valid targets for Bomber Command in the Second World War

WW2 escalated into a Total War.
They were explicitly and openly targeting civilian infrastructure
Because if you cannot feed your army then your army collapses.
This does not magically make that civilian infrastructure into military infrastructure.

As is your white knighting for the person who initially complained about how the refineries shouldn't be hit,

No, I am just calling you a liar because you are.
If I see two people arguing, and one of them is spewing blatant lies, it does not mean I am "white knighting" for the other side of the argument.

 

[mrttao]

This is, possibly, the single dumbest take on war.

You have missed it somehow. For Ukraine and Russia, this is already total war.

If you want to argue that this is a Total War already, than make that argument.

But a bunch of chucklefucks here are insisting that civilian infrastructure is military infrastructure. Which is a different argument.

However, civilians and military use pretty much every basic supply and good, so by this logic, everything except for actual tank factories doesn't count as a military target.

Tank factories, gun factories, ammo factories, gunboat factories, military jeep factories, and various other factories.

But yes, a lot of shit is civilian infrastructure, go figure.
congrats on finally understanding the difference between Total War and regular war.

 

[strunkenwhite]

Tank factories, gun factories, ammo factories, gunboat factories, military jeep factories, and various other factories.

Civilians use guns and ammo, haven't you heard? I have it on good authority that they like jeeps too.

 

[mrttao]

Civilians use guns and ammo, haven't you heard? I have it on good authority that they like jeeps too.

Civilians won't all starve to death without Guns and Ammo. They will starve to death when there is no fuel to deliver food to the cities

You are just trying to play devils advocate like a mealy mouthed weasel when you know damn well the difference.

 

[strunkenwhite]

Civilians won't all starve to death without Guns and Ammo. They will starve to death when there is no fuel to deliver food to the cities

You are just trying to play devils advocate like a mealy mouthed weasel when you know damn well the difference.

I'm not saying civilians would die the moment you took the gun out of their hand, I'm saying that "gun and ammo factories" are not exclusively military targets if oil refineries aren't, because they are both dual purpose. I'll give you the tank factories, though that still raises the question of a normally-civilian factory that has been bent to the purpose of producing military goods. Let's say half of its output is now bound for the military. Do you consider that as sacrosanct as oil refineries? What about a food factory that happens to ship 100% of its produce to the military? Surely that would be protected like oil in your logic because "people starve without food".

What's your opinion of interdicting a belligerent's shipping?

 

[Terthna]

Trump becomes president and they do have violence? I don't think he will tolerate it this time. What does he have to loose?

It's not really about what he has to lose; but the scope of his imagination, and his willingness to not play by the rules of a corrupt system.

WW2 escalated into a Total War.
They were explicitly and openly targeting civilian infrastructure
Because if you cannot feed your army then your army collapses.
This does not magically make that civilian infrastructure into military infrastructure.

No, I am just calling you a liar because you are.
If I see two people arguing, and one of them is spewing blatant lies, it does not mean I am "white knighting" for the other side of the argument.

Who exactly gets to decide what's civilian infrastructure, and what's military infrastructure anyways?

 

[DarthOne]

Much as the industrial heartlands of the Reich were valid targets for Bomber Command in the Second World War, these Oil Refineries are Russian strategic assets worth hitting. Knocking these out is devastating to the Russian war effort and economy, whilst Ukraine, having won effective command of the Black Sea and bordering friendly EU/NATO countries, can ship in whatever it needs.

It is the irony of ironies, that a war of attrition actually favours Ukraine to an extent.

Which was during a Total War scenario.

I swear, if Russia (or Russian proxies) were to start hitting US oil refineries you lot would act like the British did back in WW1 when the Germans started targeting merchant ships in response to the British blockade of food and goods into Germany.

By which I mean you’d flip out, moan about Americans starving and bitch about how evil and barbarous the Russians actions are, all without a shred of self-awareness.

 

[Bacle]

Which was during a Total War scenario.

I swear, if Russia (or Russian proxies) were to start hitting US oil refineries you lot would act like the British did back in WW1 when the Germans started targeting merchant ships in response to the British blockade of food and goods into Germany.

By which I mean you’d flip out, moan about Americans starving and bitch about how evil and barbarous the Russians actions are, all without a shred of self-awareness.

Enemy/friend distinction matters for context, dumbass, and your continued simping and running cover for Putin and Russia's war against Ukraine is disgusting.

And why in the world would you think that this is not a 'total war' scenario for Ukraine, thus, BY YOUR OWN LOGIC, making Russian refineries valid targets.

Also, hitting a US refinery has the Article 5 NATO option built into it, while actually giving US a direct and legit reason to hit Russia back directly, or neutralize all Russian assets outside Russia as a start, and escalate from there.

 

[Terthna]

Which was during a Total War scenario.

I swear, if Russia (or Russian proxies) were to start hitting US oil refineries you lot would act like the British did back in WW1 when the Germans started targeting merchant ships in response to the British blockade of food and goods into Germany.

By which I mean you’d flip out, moan about Americans starving and bitch about how evil and barbarous the Russians actions are, all without a shred of self-awareness.

It's war you dingus; any rules people think it has goes out the window the moment the fighting starts. Of course the United States would get upset at being attacked; are you seriously going to sit there and argue that they wouldn't have the right to be?

 

[Bacle]

It's war you dingus; any rules people think it has goes out the window the moment the fighting starts. Of course the United States would get upset at being attacked; are you seriously going to sit there and argue that they wouldn't have the right to be?

Logic and reason don't apply much with Darth anymore, just contrarianism and opposing whatever the 'current thing' is according to his grifter pundits and fringe talking heads.

He's a Right-Wing NPC, who thinks he's actually a player.

 

[mrttao]

It's war you dingus;

Not all wars are total wars you dolt.