History Western Civilization, Rome and Cyclical History

Interesting. Do you have info showing that religious Europeans are having kids? All I have heard is that Europeans on a whole are losing religion.

As for the migrants, yes the arab world birth rate is going down. But the ones going to Europe seem to be the one's who would have kids thus they can sufficiently replace themselves I would think.

Can you summarize what you are trying to say will happen to the West? Are you saying that its trapped in the cycle of Civilization unto of Rome and will thus fall one day?

And that there is no way to escape this cycle?

This assumes the lower classes won’t be bought off by Mammon with thirty pieces of silver for the Optimates to enshrine their rule through means sociological or technological indefinitely.

If we wanted to put on our cultural Marxist hats, we could argue this is precisely what modern society is designed to do. Keep the lower classes entertained and comfortable and society in a state of stasis indefinitely.
Isn't the majority of states, the bold? Keep the lower classes entertained, comfortable while elites do the ruling. And didn't you create a post where you advocated a type of feudalism. So are you for this or against this?

What makes you think the elites of Europe, China and the US won’t come to some sort of accord and implement a globalist technocratic communism?
They are already trying to do so. Its called the "Great Reset" . World Economic Forum slogan "You will own nothing and you will be happy"


They will do this under the guise of “liberating” the settlers from non existent “robber barons” and say they’ll be there to “help” and “advise” said settlers

They can’t allow them to become a symbol or example that goes against their paradigm

Failing an invasion, they’ll probably try sending over their own population who won’t assimilate and will possibly try forcing the locals to do stuff for them

Would be even worse if they were Space Amish but more advanced
What? Amish live among their own separate from the rest of the population and do their own thing. Carl what are you on about here?
 
What? Amish live among their own separate from the rest of the population and do their own thing. Carl what are you on about here?

By “Space Amish but more advanced”, I meant they would be more religious or traditional or kinda nuclear-family-esque and more self reliant or only relying on a relatively small community

If that is seen, it would be considered a possible social danger

Or can’t allow these ones to live differently and be shown to be happy

Same with any new or small businesses that open up in a theoretical Space Frontier

If they prosper, they are a threat for the symbol they become
 
By “Space Amish but more advanced”, I meant they would be more religious or traditional or kinda nuclear-family-esque and more self reliant or only relying on a relatively small community

If that is seen, it would be considered a possible social danger

Or can’t allow these ones to live differently and be shown to be happy

Same with any new or small businesses that open up in a theoretical Space Frontier

If they prosper, they are a threat for the symbol they become
Oh. I get you now. The locals are the Space Amish.

Have to correct you. The Nuclear family is not the traditional setup of family. The Extended family is. The Nuclear family is what came after the Extended family got upended.
 
Interesting. Do you have info showing that religious Europeans are having kids? All I have heard is that Europeans on a whole are losing religion.
I have an overview somewhere, but I have no idea where.

As for my own country (the Netherlands, which is pretty much the poster child for 'secularist modernism'): one can easily see the differences here. The top ten (in fact, the top twenty... and thirty...) of municipalities with the highest birth-rate, every year, lists the municipalities with the highest numbers of conservative Christians. The so-called Dutch Bible Belt, as well as some of the ardently Catholic places in the South.

Meanwhile, the cities are well below average, despite the vast bulk of the non-Western immigrants and their direct descendants living there. The cities are simply also the bulwark of secular/atheist people. Who are functionally marching towards extinction. So the future of the cities is Islamic.

The future is, demographically, quite clear: mainly homogeneous Islamic communities (mosty urban) and homogeneous Christian communities (mostly rural). Parallel societies? Civil strife? Civil war? All possible. The happy dream of harmonious conciliation strikes me as improbable, when I look at long centuries of history.

Can you summarize what you are trying to say will happen to the West? Are you saying that its trapped in the cycle of Civilization unto of Rome and will thus fall one day?

And that there is no way to escape this cycle?
I have outlined my expectations in previous posts.

Yes, I do believe there is a macrohistorical cycle, and Western culture is subject to it.

No, I don't believe this can somehow be "escaped" (at present), but I do believe that certain factors can derail the course of events. This is not an argument in favour of some kind of historical determinism, but rather one in favour is discernable historical patterns.

As far as "breaking the wheel" goes: I have previously mentioned that the patterns I see in history have existed since "civilisation" came into being. That is: as an ultimate product of the neolithic revolution. All our paradigms are based on the world that exists in the wake of that. If something as fundamental as that occurs again, our current paradigms become obsolete. For instance: if non-scarcity were to be achieved (e.g. the invention of a replicator), or some kind of transhumanism produces a collective consciousness... that would end the validity of current assumptions quite definitively.

I do not consider those prospects to be realistic in anything like the short-to-mid term, though.
 
Expanding on this a bit (because I'm the sort of person who always has more to say, go figure):

The Romans took the Western, Hellenised bits of the Seleukid Empire, and the final border ended up further East. Now, I don't give Russia post-Putin very good odds for stable governance. I expect the country to fall apart. (Few people realise just how close it came to that, in the early '90s.) So I would certainly entertain the possibility that European Russia ends up in the "Western" sphere, while everything beyond the Urals is beyond the Empire's reach.

The early Empire is also a time of religious revival -- state-backed. After an increasingly un-traditional period has ended in carnage, people really do return to tradition. They do invent some of those "old tradition", of course. The government actively sponsors it. So in "our" time (really our grandchilden's time), I would not at all be surpised if the really conservative Catholic, Protestant and Eastern Orthodox Christians figure out that they have more in common with each other than they do with any progressive club. Oikoumene? Oikoumene. "One God. One Church. One Emperor."

And people think religion is dead...

To be fair, it is a clash of religions... modern ideologies, especially Progressivism, could easily be described as secular religions. Religion is not necessarily defined by a worship of god, but to belief in supernatural. Modern progressivism is pretty much defined by belief without proof - belief in constant progress, that everything old is bad and that a house can remain standing after you destroy its foundations...
 
To be fair, it is a clash of religions... modern ideologies, especially Progressivism, could easily be described as secular religions. Religion is not necessarily defined by a worship of god, but to belief in supernatural. Modern progressivism is pretty much defined by belief without proof - belief in constant progress, that everything old is bad and that a house can remain standing after you destroy its foundations...
I agree that many things that don't present themselves as religions do, in fact, fill up the same space. When traditional religion is pushed aside, cultism proliferates. I've oft noted that socialism, for instance, has its own holy writ (their manifesto and other key texts), its own prophets (Marx, Engels), and its own dogmas and doctrines that may not be questioned upon pain of excommunication (e.g. "equality is an end unto itself"). It even has its own eschatology, and a secularised attempt at the post-historical paradise (the classless society).

But something like Scientology, for instance, while very different in form, is an exponent of the same trend. The rampant rise of really weird conspiracy theories (e.g. ancient aliens, flat earth) is part of it, too. People are desperately seeking answers, because the questions remain, even when the traditional answers has been declared somehow "invalid".

In this, our age is also no different from Rome, where the dying age of the Republic saw a wild explosion of cultism. And when I speak of a "religious revival" after "an increasingly un-traditional period", I really do mean the return of traditional religion. The end of the cultism. See also China, where the end of the Warring States Period saw the "hundred schools of thought" ruthlessly purged, and the most traditional ways of thinking regain their prestige. And there, too, we see that the "old traditions" are partially invented or re-invented; a return to the old, yes, but in a way that is suited to the Empire.

My expectation for something similar in the West would be that:

1) the cults of "modernity" go extinct, both because they prove increasingly hollow and because (by the bloody end of the era) their remaining adherents will be ruthlessly purged;

2) moderates of the more traditional religion, who trend towards secularisation, will (continue to) lose all appeal and have little to no offspring, and will therefore also go extinct;

3) the traditionalists will gain in appeal, as they represent proven certainty in an increasingly chaotic world, and have the highest reproductive rate;

4) in this process, old differences between various "currents" within the traditional religion (Christianity) will become less and less relevant, as common cause is ever more central, and;

5) the early Empire will actively foster that unity, more-or-less forcibly bringing together a Neo-Kalkhedonian Church, glossing over any previous differences between the Catholic, Protestant and Eastern Orthodox denominations.
 
Regarding modernity, doesn't the faith most people have in the epistemic certainty and absolute value of science put a bit of a spanner in the works? Given that Newton and the scientific revolution have never been overturned, and most people as a result accept science's word on most matters over religion.
 
Regarding modernity, doesn't the faith most people have in the epistemic certainty and absolute value of science put a bit of a spanner in the works? Given that Newton and the scientific revolution have never been overturned, and most people as a result accept science's word on most matters over religion.
No, the opposite and inverse even.

Just look at all the arguments that start because my science but are really arguments from authority. Science relies on skepticism to work and the way people put faith in science actually hinders it.

Actually science is an arduous and epistemologically limited. It can only tell you what is. Even scientists do not respect the limits of science by claiming that paleontology and archeology are sciences. They are not, paleontology and archeology both forms of deduction.
 
Regarding modernity, doesn't the faith most people have in the epistemic certainty and absolute value of science put a bit of a spanner in the works? Given that Newton and the scientific revolution have never been overturned, and most people as a result accept science's word on most matters over religion.
I would not call modernity at all respectful of science. It pays lip service, but that's just so much blather. I'd call modernity almost schizophrenic.

On the one hand, you have the impulse towards crass materialism. This is the smug anti-theism; the dogged insistence that only the physical can be real; the simple-minded Redditor-mentality of "I-fucking-love-science"/"eh-gonna-need-a-source-for-that"; the shallow consumerism; the perverse focus on what one has, rather than what one does and is. As we can see, it pervades in all sorts of aspects of life.

On the other hand, we have an opposed impulse towards philosophical relativism (and ultimately nihilism). This is the ideology of "my reality isn't the same as your reality"; the insistence that everything is relative and subjective; the solipsistic belief that the universe is just a sort of dream; the denial of the physical and its value; the political and philosophical doctrine of so-called postmodernism. This, too, pervades.

Both of these impulses are simplistic and harmful. They are factually opposites, but they can ignore this because they are both fundamentally anti-reason. They lack any and all solid metaphysics. And they both encourage hypocrites to both detest the world they live in... and to hedonistically indulge in the meaningless. Apply historical comparison, and we see precisely what this strange dualism really represents: nothing but the old Gnostic heresies, simply dressed in a new jacket.

This isn't science. This is pseudoscience. A return to more traditional religion will, in fact, be beneficial towards the scientific mindset. Perhaps the Church can start by once again teaching people the fundamentals that are now lacking. "Repeat after me: essence precedes existence..."
 
I would not call modernity at all respectful of science. It pays lip service, but that's just so much blather. I'd call modernity almost schizophrenic.
Actually, it is the respect itself that is the problem. Science needs doubt to work, but people are inclined to trust the results because science does work. Religion can help by giving people something else to trust more.
 
Nope.It was founded by Jesus,and later become named as romans - when Byzantium decided to have its own church,i think.
Sure, and the first pope was a Roman citizen, and the Empire itself adopted it as the state religion under Constantine, and the vast majority of popes post being legalized by Rome have been headed in Rome the city, and many major, defining characteristics like the rejection of Arianism happened with Rome. Hell, y’all use Latin still, you keep the language of Rome alive. I don’t see how you can reject any connection with the Roman Empire in Catholicism, it’s literally the last and most robust tie to the Roman Empire still alive and with a continuous history from there.
 
Sure, and the first pope was a Roman citizen, and the Empire itself adopted it as the state religion under Constantine, and the vast majority of popes post being legalized by Rome have been headed in Rome the city, and many major, defining characteristics like the rejection of Arianism happened with Rome. Hell, y’all use Latin still, you keep the language of Rome alive. I don’t see how you can reject any connection with the Roman Empire in Catholicism, it’s literally the last and most robust tie to the Roman Empire still alive and with a continuous history from there.

First pope was St.Peter,who was not roman citizen - thuse was crucyfitied,not killed by sword.Like St.Paul,who as roman citizen was beheated.
And yes,they take roman organisation and law - but also greek philosophy and definition of Truth.All ruled by Christian morality.
roman law and part of organisation was only less important part of Catholic Church
 
To repeat what I asked @Skallagrim elsewhere, I’m concerned about the destructive potential of the conflicts that lie ahead, assuming that this outline is broadly correct? Because you predict that the factions will become increasingly polarized, then hateful, then out for blood once all pretenses of civility have been dropped and everyone’s true colors have been laid bare for real, someone’s almost assured to deploy nukes at least once or twice as the violence escalates.

Ordinarily, I'd concur that--for all the horrors of the transitional period and how it looks like the world’s going to hell for those living through it--humanity will survive and, given enough time, rebuild. Just as was the case in the aftermath of Rome's fall, the Black Death sweeping through Europe, and the World Wars. The problem is, I'm fearful that extremist factions with access to nukes could very well succeed where close calls like the Cuban Missile Crisis had failed. That is, one tactical strike being met with retaliation that spirals into a full-blown nuclear exchange enough to crush all hopes of a Universal Empire rising from the ashes and coming to encompass a wayward, battered, but ultimately reparable Western World.

Even at the most generous, I think we should anticipate that at least a few capital cities could be irradiated. Whether it’s primarily today’s hot-shot places that become dead zones tomorrow—London, New York, Paris, et al—or if it’s locations that stand a chance of reaching that status in several decades’ time that’d become likely targets, I couldn’t tell you.

Nukes aside, there’s also drones, cruise missiles, cyberwarfare, and a host of other nasty wonder-weapons that either hadn’t existed or were much less advanced the last time that conflict on the scale we’re talking about broke out (1939 to 1945, to be precise). Give them somewhere from six to nine decades to improve and expand to encompass entirely new military technologies that we can hardly conceive of as of yet, and I fear you’ve a recipe for carnage that’ll make the World Wars look like a playground fight. Considering that the capabilities to do just that have already been around for a while—but not yet realized, due to cooler heads prevailing over that timeframe—what we can expect for the violent demise of modernity that you’ve sketched out strikes me as leaps and bounds worse than anything that we’ve seen before. I hope, to the greatest extent possible, that I’m wrong about that.
 
To repeat what I asked @Skallagrim elsewhere, I’m concerned about the destructive potential of the conflicts that lie ahead, assuming that this outline is broadly correct? Because you predict that the factions will become increasingly polarized, then hateful, then out for blood once all pretenses of civility have been dropped and everyone’s true colors have been laid bare for real, someone’s almost assured to deploy nukes at least once or twice as the violence escalates.
I agree that such things are not out of the question at all. Although note that there are, ever increasingly, other weapons of mass destruction -- and of mass terror -- that can be as easily (and in many cases onsiderably more easily) created or acquired than atomic weapons. These typically have less of the attendant risks, too.

This makes it probable that state actors would use such alternatives by choice, whereas fanatical groups would more easily avail themselves of such alternatives and thus use them as well.

Ordinarily, I'd concur that--for all the horrors of the transitional period and how it looks like the world’s going to hell for those living through it--humanity will survive and, given enough time, rebuild. Just as was the case in the aftermath of Rome's fall, the Black Death sweeping through Europe, and the World Wars. The problem is, I'm fearful that extremist factions with access to nukes could very well succeed where close calls like the Cuban Missile Crisis had failed. That is, one tactical strike being met with retaliation that spirals into a full-blown nuclear exchange enough to crush all hopes of a Universal Empire rising from the ashes and coming to encompass a wayward, battered, but ultimately reparable Western World.
Per the above, I'd expect increased chemical and biological warfare sooner than mass nuclear exchanges. Note that this is hardly any less threatening. I would be extremely surprised if there is any major power presently active that is not researching gene-tageting diseases and horrifying stuff of that order. (To be very clear: I don't see any evidence that Covid-19 was deliberately unleashed to 'test the response', but everybody is taking notes right now.)

Limited use of nuclear weapons, naturally, cannot be ruled out at all.

(I stress that this is just my expectation. If I'm wrong, the cockroaches will let the record note that I was a moron.)

Even at the most generous, I think we should anticipate that at least a few capital cities could be irradiated. Whether it’s primarily today’s hot-shot places that become dead zones tomorrow—London, New York, Paris, et al—or if it’s locations that stand a chance of reaching that status in several decades’ time that’d become likely targets, I couldn’t tell you.
It's possible, but I would sooner expect the real hotheads to 'let loose' once the West is at its most turbulent, and can't properly keep order. Lunatics in the Islamic world, seeing their oil revenues evaporating, turning to a fanatical leadership, and a subsequent launch against Israel? And then Israel fires back, per Samson? Not at all unthinkable.

Regarding proliferation, I'm rather concerned about Russia post-Putin. Things went fairly smoothly in the post-Soviet chaos (only a very few nukes went missing), but can we really be that lucky twice? Some loons with ex-Russian nukes are a possibility. Then again, given who the usual suspects are, clandestine usage in some Central Asian shitfight is then the likeliest result.

Nukes aside, there’s also drones, cruise missiles, cyberwarfare, and a host of other nasty wonder-weapons that either hadn’t existed or were much less advanced the last time that conflict on the scale we’re talking about broke out (1939 to 1945, to be precise). Give them somewhere from six to nine decades to improve and expand to encompass entirely new military technologies that we can hardly conceive of as of yet, and I fear you’ve a recipe for carnage that’ll make the World Wars look like a playground fight. Considering that the capabilities to do just that have already been around for a while—but not yet realized, due to cooler heads prevailing over that timeframe—what we can expect for the violent demise of modernity that you’ve sketched out strikes me as leaps and bounds worse than anything that we’ve seen before. I hope, to the greatest extent possible, that I’m wrong about that.
What you describe sounds -- and I think quite accurately -- like the backdrop for a cyberpunk-like story. As it happens, I have long felt that the cyberpunk genre was, in some ways, ahead of the curve. Yes, we'll see some pretty nasty shit of that sort. In the '80s and '90s, they just expected it within a decade (or maybe two), when in reality (as always) it takes longer than you think to get to the point that you expect.

Going by current developments, the stuff we're going to see in use will probably be more geared towards A) highly targeted operations and B) debilitating strikes, though. As opposed to true "mass destruction" in as blanketed a way as possible. So rather than "World War III", we may see something like the conflict that Heinlein referred to in his fiction as "the wet firecracker war". (Which he never really describes, but the name is telling. It seems to have involved limited use of nuclear weapons, but mere decades later, no vast-scale destruction is witnessed.)
 
I would be extremely surprised if there is any major power presently active that is not researching gene-tageting diseases and horrifying stuff of that order.
Also note anyone who has tried has likely failed, especially if they think they succeeded. There exists a scarcity of competency.
Going by current developments, the stuff we're going to see in use will probably be more geared towards A) highly targeted operations and B) debilitating strikes, though. As opposed to true "mass destruction" in as blanketed a way as possible. So rather than "World War III", we may see something like the conflict that Heinlein referred to in his fiction as "the wet firecracker war".
Also, because the main point of conflict seems to be the divide between communist infiltrators and various indigenous populations, I see any possible world war three as basically everyone having a civil war all at once.
 
(quoting into the more-relevant thread)
Unless and until you change the fundamental situation or the fundamental nature of the species, the current patterns will persist. And something like the industrial revolution? Not fundamental. The neolithic revolution was fundamental. That was the basis for all organised culture. And we are still living in that paradigm.
We aren't, though. The Neolithic Revolution ushered in multi-millennia standards of many, many kinds, of which virtually none are actually alive today. Up until the Industrial Revolution, subsistence agriculture was the lifeblood of the economy. Up until the proliferation of the printing press, communication was fundamentally interpersonal. Up until the creation of the modern republics, the default assumption was being ruled over.

The situation has changed. Modern economies are almost solely resource bound, unlike the Neolithic Revolution. Labor is overwhelmingly the transportation and oversight of resources, not the basic acquisition or refinement, because we've increasingly automated away such a vast amount of man-hours that people "do" extremely little. Even agriculture's reaching the point where it's about to stop being land bound, such that there's actively in use projects in Japan to obsolete the idea of farmland with put-anywhere-you-can-get-the-water-to hydroponics facilities.

Politically, the fundamental precepts of "The West", where it differs from Christendom, have a variety of fundamental contradictions with the necessities of forming a real Empire. These contradictions are why the EU is a complete joke, because the entire notion of it as a power in its own right has become a contradictory statement due to the notion of self-determination becoming such an overwhelmingly basic precept that the idea of this unaccountable supernational entity being legitimate is seen with scorn.

And this is without getting into the absolute absurdity of calling anything a discrete culture anymore, because of communication explosions leading to cultural influences no longer having any meaningful borders, even discounting the modern migrations.
 
@Morphic Tide
One thing I hope we at least move past in a sort of technological revolution way

Is the use of long and expensive hours of classes in school and college, for people to be able to more or less teach themselves from a book, with minor help from premade or randomized online tests and people maybe gaining their skills whilst studying by actually working in the field

Not this “higher education” bullshit that saddles you with teachers who aren’t even that good or increase your weight unnecessarily with subjects you’ll either forget or will realize to be “too abridged” to help and may in part be there to brainwash you
 
We aren't, though. The Neolithic Revolution ushered in multi-millennia standards of many, many kinds, of which virtually none are actually alive today. Up until the Industrial Revolution, subsistence agriculture was the lifeblood of the economy. Up until the proliferation of the printing press, communication was fundamentally interpersonal.
Many changes, many forms. The underlying paradigm is the exact same still. Basic social hierarchy, with some very superficial variations, and an economy that is based on the distributen of scarce means in a way that is deemed equitable. (Interestingly, the default assumption about what is 'equitable' is also remarkably consistent. Right down to the part where the one doing the dividing gets the lion's share. Even the most revolutionary groups, as soon as they gain power, conform to this. And their supporters swallow it without protest!)

No, nothing has changed. Not really. Only the surface details.

Up until the creation of the modern republics, the default assumption was being ruled over.
It still is. We tend to wind some cloaking fictions around it now, but that's just play-acting. A ritual more than anything. People have adopted such rituals before. Have proudly called themselves "free" before, as opposed to the lamentable subjects of far-off despots. It was bullshit then, too. And when the time came, the knelt before the new boss, same as everybody else.

(Amusing aside: in practice, their lives were usually more free under a distant and typically absent tyrant than under a very present "government of free men", whatever they called it at the given time. That's also still true.)

The situation has changed.
Yes, constantly. All the details, all the time. And the more they changed, the more things stayed the same, underneath.

Modern economies are almost solely resource bound, unlike the Neolithic Revolution. Labor is overwhelmingly the transportation and oversight of resources, not the basic acquisition or refinement, because we've increasingly automated away such a vast amount of man-hours that people "do" extremely little. Even agriculture's reaching the point where it's about to stop being land bound, such that there's actively in use projects in Japan to obsolete the idea of farmland with put-anywhere-you-can-get-the-water-to hydroponics facilities.
I mentioned the distinction between particulars and universals. One might also speak of variables and constants. You name examples of the former. These do not meaningfully affect the latter.

Politically, the fundamental precepts of "The West", where it differs from Christendom, have a variety of fundamental contradictions with the necessities of forming a real Empire. These contradictions are why the EU is a complete joke, because the entire notion of it as a power in its own right has become a contradictory statement due to the notion of self-determination becoming such an overwhelmingly basic precept that the idea of this unaccountable supernational entity being legitimate is seen with scorn.
I remind you that Rome considered itself the least likely state to ever accept an Imperial ruler of any kind. "No kings ever again" was sort of their claim to fame. Augustus cleverly got around it by the refined trick of not calling himself that. It's amazing how that worked out.

The West, meanwhile, has no objection to Emperors. In fact, we almost have a fetish for that kind of thing. So that's not the problem. The notion of sovereignty is. But that's no problem, because that notion derives from Christian ethics (and, one might argue, is ultimately tied to the notion of individual salvation). No matter, all you have to do is make it extremely clear that you are restoring sovereignty.

The governing styles of modernity have the... I hesititate to call it an advantage... that this claim will actually have a good chance of being true. (Again, the distant Emperor is way less of a bother than elected official #5475 and government bureaucrat #3596 are presently.)

Meanwhile, the European Union is one of modernity's attempts to legitimise its own structures via self-referential bullshit. "This has authority and a right to exist because we say so." Yeah, no surprises when that bombs.

And this is without getting into the absolute absurdity of calling anything a discrete culture anymore, because of communication explosions leading to cultural influences no longer having any meaningful borders, even discounting the modern migrations.
I'm not sure you'll consider it as funny as I do, but Cato said much the same about the state of affairs in the Roman Republic. Of course, he was talking about the fact that all sorts of riff-raff got citizen status nowadays, and Rome was absorbing way too many foreign regions whose perfidious barbarism diluted the Romanitas, not to mention those Greeks and their depraved ways...

He wasn't wrong in noting that these issues caused problems. He was wrong in assuming it wouldn't be solved.
 
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The West and Christendom are related but separate concepts, and they have messy and vague identities. Christendom is the Christian world, specifically the Catholic world and protestant countries which were formally Catholic. It arguably does not exist now and was even in the middle ages, more of an ideal than anything. Which probably reached its zenith with the Crusades. It didn't include Byzantium, what remained of Al-Andalus or the Eastern Orthodox World, much less the pagan remnants in Eastern Europe.

The West is far more nebulous-it incorporates Christendom, it also incorporates the European settler colonies, at least the United States, Canada, and Australia and New Zealand. This grouping alongside the UK form something within the West called the Anglosphere. Something which was seen as distinct even at the beginning of the century from Germanic Civilization-witness the animus both the French and Germans had towards the commercialized, crass and perfidious Anglo Saxons. You might argue the West in the 20th century before the Cold War was subdivided between Anglodom, Francodom, and Germandom. With Slavdom being seen even in 1914 as something distinct from the West.

Most broadly there is the idea of a pan Western Imperium, or more bluntly a White world-which incorporates, both the smallest European enclaves left in Africa, the Settler colonies, and Europe itself. Basically the entire White world in a racial sense. Though that was historically divided, often by Nordicists, that of course emphasized Germany and Northern European superiority over the Slavs, decadent Latins and crass Anglo Saxons.

For a long time, Byzantium and the Eastern Roman Empire was not seen as part of the West either, the Latins in the 4th crusade, but historically and culturally are now.

In more recent terms, the West was Anti Communist or Anti Soviet, and was also in general set against the Communist or Bolshevik East, the USSR, China, and their satellites. Even the Western left was quite culturally distinct from its fellow travelers across the Iron Curtain.

At its further broad, even broader than the crude "Where White people live", the West incorporates Latin America, a region long peripheral to Europe and North America, but also still resolutely Christian, and heirs at least in part to the Spanish colonial legacy, as much the preceding Amerindian cultures. In some places though-such as the Afro Caribbean, a cultural sphere, the notion it is part of the West seems rather questionable to me. I suppose you could say certain places in the Caribbean or Latin america are peripheries on the periphery.

Haiti too, you could argue some of the African dominated Caribbean islands are an extension of African civilization.

In modern terms the West also incorporated the First World, that is the capitalist world, opposed to the communist one-more than a few Asian states, that were US aligned(or more bluntly American vassals), against Sovietism. These I do not think can be seen as "Western" in spite of their recent historical and economical alignment with the US.

I would say the West can at its most broad, can be used to incorporate all of these sub categories, or if you wish to be less broad in your classification remove this or that part from its sphere, depending on your preference? Korea and Japan are not majority Christian, their just aligned in recent history with the US and hold to the Capitalist economic principles.

TLDR: The West has multiple sub cultural spheres that overlap but still retain great cultural and historical differences, and a good argument can be made some elements of the West are not really Western, but are merely American vassals.

@Skallagrim your thoughts on the above.
 

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