Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

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ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Marduk said:
I did. Why?
Still more modern than updated Leopard 1's and M60's that some places keep as reserves, and with upgrade potential on top of that.
Even year wise, not much different from many countries using their Leopard 2's in the A4 variant, which dates back to 1985, often as their good model rather than reserve.
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I would have counted them as reserve, not primary, as they are absolutely not modern front-line tanks. The fact that some nations still use even more obsolete tanks because that's all they have and/or can afford doesn't change that, and it does substantially change the number counts for what one would consider reasonable/expected military sizes.


United States (Army): ~150 M1A2 SEP v3 + ~ 1,600 M1A2 SEP v2 + ~750 M1A1SA, plus ~4000 reserve M1A1 and M1A2.

Poland: 250 M1A2 SEPv3 + 250 Leopard 2PL active duty, reserve was 200+ T-72 but these are being 'traded' to Ukraine for ~100 M1A1 Abrams.

France: 222 active duty LeClerc + 184 reserve LeClerc.

Germany: ~200 active duty Leopard 2 + ~100 Leopard currently under repair/refit. Intent is to upgrade all 300 active Leopard to a mix of A6 and A7 configuration by 2026.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
DarthOne said:
Hey if it gets Europe to stop being an economic zone for economic migrants and actually give a damn about its own native populations and cultures, that is fine by me.
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True.It is bad,that people are dying,but it is perfect opportunity for other countries to get real armies,and abadonn green madness and come back to coal.
In Poland lockdown was stopped by ukrainian refugees who do not even thought about vaccines,not any changes in CV virus.
 
DarthOne

DarthOne

☦️


Tourism in 'New Russia'


Overall doesn’t seem that Russia is suffering much from the war and the sanctions from what the video is showing.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
AmosTrask said:
Psychological professionals use him as a case study in paranoid schizophrenia, lack of impulse control in classrooms. Or they did.
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Well,since,unlike many other tsars,nobody murdered him,it worked for him as ruler.
Not so for Russia - country in which everybody except tsar is slave could not develop well.
 
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Cherico

Well-known member
DarthOne said:
Hey if it gets Europe to stop being an economic zone for economic migrants and actually give a damn about its own native populations and cultures, that is fine by me.
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Europe is honestly a place that has gotten really truely arrogant, and when it all breaks down I honestly think it will break them as a people because they put so much stock in their current paradime.
 
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ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Marduk said:
That only points out that many of SK reserve tanks are about as good as many of NATO states' line tanks. Also half of Poland's Leopards are still A4. Even Germany is keeping around some A4s apparently.
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I don't think we're really disagreeing here, just interpreting the same fact base slightly differently.

The Polish A4 Leopards would be additional reserves to the T-72s I mentioned, though. The active duty forces are the Leo 2 PLs and Abrams SEP v3s, both of which are state of the art updates.

As far as I'm aware, Germany only has A4s left as warehoused reserves because they haven't been able to sell off all their massive Cold War supply of over two thousand of the things. A6 is the oldest they consider to be frontline-worthy; they have a number of A5s still in nominally active service, but these are only used as OPFOR training tanks.
 
Lord Sovereign

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
Bacle said:
Because I can garuantee you that there is no version of the future where the pro-Russia/anti-Ukraine crowd comes out looking pretty.

It's just do you and the pro-Russia/anti-Ukraine crowd want to be on the "French object to Iraq 2 so we go to 'Freedom Fries' in response" level derision, or the "Was a known Vichy collaborator " level hate when this is done.
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That the Right has insisted on blasting its foot off over this war when it never needed to is just the most baffling thing of all. Indeed, as supposed champions of a country’s right to sovereignty and self determination, we should at least have serious sympathies towards Ukraine’s cause. Because, fundamentally, this isn’t about “globalists trying to rule the world.” It’s about a dying empire (Russia) trying to quash a vassal that funnily enough doesn’t want to be a vassal anymore.

And God help us when the war is over and the mass graves get dug up. No one will want to touch the Right for decades afterwards, and all because it couldn’t control its paranoia and stop knee jerking.
 
DarthOne

DarthOne

☦️
Lord Sovereign said:
That the Right has insisted on blasting its foot off over this war when it never needed to is just the most baffling thing of all. Indeed, as supposed champions of a country’s right to sovereignty and self determination, we should at least have serious sympathies towards Ukraine’s cause. Because, fundamentally, this isn’t about “globalists trying to rule the world.” It’s about a dying empire (Russia) trying to quash a vassal that funnily enough doesn’t want to be a vassal anymore.

And God help us when the war is over and the mass graves get dug up. No one will want to touch the Right for decades afterwards, and all because it couldn’t control its paranoia and stop knee jerking.
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Pretty sure mass graves are inevitable at this point no matter who wins.
 
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Cherico

Well-known member
Lord Sovereign said:
That the Right has insisted on blasting its foot off over this war when it never needed to is just the most baffling thing of all. Indeed, as supposed champions of a country’s right to sovereignty and self determination, we should at least have serious sympathies towards Ukraine’s cause. Because, fundamentally, this isn’t about “globalists trying to rule the world.” It’s about a dying empire (Russia) trying to quash a vassal that funnily enough doesn’t want to be a vassal anymore.

And God help us when the war is over and the mass graves get dug up. No one will want to touch the Right for decades afterwards, and all because it couldn’t control its paranoia and stop knee jerking.
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just because there is a bad war it doesn't mean its your war.

The right will be just fine not wanting to get involved in a conflict expecially since people are exausted from 20 years of war from the War on terror.
 
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Cherico

Well-known member
Bacle said:
Russia saw how we handled pulling out of A-stan, and that is why they felt confident about launch the invasion in February.

The War on Terror may have made people here tired of fighting stupid, wasteful 'nation building' operations.

What is happening in Ukraine is not that, not at all.

The Right, who laud the Founding Fathers for rebelling against the British Empire, wanting to cut aid to Ukraine while they are being actively invaded and genocided by Russian troops bent on recreating the Russian Empire/USSR, due to domestic fuckery, is one of the most embaressing things I've seen the Right do to itself.

That includes Jan 6th, and this time the Right don't even have someone like Ray Epps to blame for egging shit on or acting as an agent provacatuer in the crowd; the contrarian Right got taken for a ride by Putin's propaganda machine, and are too proud (or assmad about being fooled) to admit it.

Oh FFS, it's all in one ear and out the other, why do I even bother.
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It doesn't matter Barcle if its different people are still fucking exausted.

This was a global war that lasted over 20 years this is kind of the expected result.
 
Bacle

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Cherico said:
It doesn't matter Barcle if its different people are still fucking exausted.

This was a global war that lasted over 20 years this is kind of the expected result.
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The US isn't even the one fighting this war, we are just sending aid and weapons and intel. It is not US forces on the ground, it is not US sons and daughters dying in Ukraine. This is effectively teh Ukrainian War of Independence, because of how Russia has decided to act.

Also, Russia invading Ukraine and Right wing folks letting themselves get snookered by Putin is not a 'expected result' of anything. Treating this foolish course of action as 'expected', so you can shrug off caring too much about Ukraine, shows how spineless the Right truly is when it comes to the important shit.

This could have been a time of the Right holding the Dems feet to the fire over not providing enough aid to Ukraine, and making the Dems show they are not Russian-friendly. Instead the Right decided to make the 'Russian collusion hoax' into reality at the worst time possible.

And trying to play the 'we cannot pay for the war, even if we don't fight it' is missing that we are effectively ending the nacent Russian Empire using gear that is mostly already bought and paid for and much of which was likely to age out to scrap in the next few years anyway.

No third position possible anymore; either someone supports Ukriane, or they support Russia.
 
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Cherico

Well-known member
Bacle said:
The US isn't even the one fighting this war, we are just sending aid and weapons and intel. It is not US forces on the ground, it is not US sons and daughters dying in Ukraine. This is effectively teh Ukrainian War of Independence, because of how Russia has decided to act.

Also, Russia invading Ukraine and Right wing folks letting themselves get snookered by Putin is not a 'expected result' of anything. Treating this foolish course of action as 'expected', so you can shrug off caring too much about Ukraine, shows how spineless the Right truly is when it comes to the important shit.

This could have been a time of the Right holding the Dems feet to the fire over not providing enough aid to Ukraine, and making the Dems show they are not Russian-friendly. Instead the Right decided to make the 'Russian collusion hoax' into reality at the worst time possible.

And trying to play the 'we cannot pay for the war, even if we don't fight it' is missing that we are effectively ending the nacent Russian Empire using gear that is mostly already bought and paid for and much of which was likely to age out to scrap in the next few years anyway.

No third position possible anymore; either someone supports Ukriane, or they support Russia.
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This was after 10 years of fighting war, where Alexander gave far more to his troops ours served for 20.

I don't think its fair to expect more from our people then the men who conquered much of the world for Alexander.
 
Bacle

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Cherico said:



This was after 10 years of fighting war, where Alexander gave far more to his troops ours served for 20.

I don't think its fair to expect more from our people then the men who conquered much of the world for Alexander.
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We aren't the ones fighting, for fuck sake's.

I mean, what part of 'it is not US troops fighting and dying' doesn't get through to you, because your posts and comparisons just completely ignore that fact.
 
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Cherico

Well-known member
Bacle said:
We aren't the ones fighting, for fuck sake's.

I mean, what part of 'it is not US troops fighting and dying' doesn't get through to you, because your posts and comparisons just completely ignore that fact.
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And I keep telling you its pretty human to not want to get involved in a conflict after a massive 20 year long conflict has ended. The fact that american's are supporting this conflict as much as they have is honestly kind of a miracle because american's are burned the fuck out.

At this point your whipping a people who have been in a war so long that the new born children of the men who initially fought it fought side by side by their fathers. Then they watched as every bit of their efforts was very publically flushed down the toylet watched everything they sacerficed for be entirely for naught.

And you expect these people to be jazzed about another conflict?

You have to work with in human nature Barnacle and have to accept that the people who are aganst this conflict are not being malicious their just tired and exausted.
 
Terthna

Terthna

Professional Lurker
Bacle said:
No third position possible anymore; either someone supports Ukriane, or they support Russia.
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Okay; so then do we get to scrutinize and criticize Ukraine again when the conflict is over, or is that just never going to be allowed so long as Russia exists? I mean, I get it; there are no biolabs in Ukraine, fine. But what if they decide to put some there later on; are you going to accuse people who talk about it of being Russian sympathizers, and do the establishment's groundwork for them in silencing dissent?
 
King Arts

King Arts

Well-known member
Bacle said:
The US isn't even the one fighting this war, we are just sending aid and weapons and intel. It is not US forces on the ground, it is not US sons and daughters dying in Ukraine. This is effectively teh Ukrainian War of Independence, because of how Russia has decided to act.

Also, Russia invading Ukraine and Right wing folks letting themselves get snookered by Putin is not a 'expected result' of anything. Treating this foolish course of action as 'expected', so you can shrug off caring too much about Ukraine, shows how spineless the Right truly is when it comes to the important shit.

This could have been a time of the Right holding the Dems feet to the fire over not providing enough aid to Ukraine, and making the Dems show they are not Russian-friendly. Instead the Right decided to make the 'Russian collusion hoax' into reality at the worst time possible.

And trying to play the 'we cannot pay for the war, even if we don't fight it' is missing that we are effectively ending the nacent Russian Empire using gear that is mostly already bought and paid for and much of which was likely to age out to scrap in the next few years anyway.

No third position possible anymore; either someone supports Ukriane, or they support Russia.
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Bacle this is the same bush era stupidity of your either with us or against us. There are many nations that would not be affected either way if Ukraine wins or loses.
 
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ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Lord Sovereign said:
That the Right has insisted on blasting its foot off over this war when it never needed to is just the most baffling thing of all. Indeed, as supposed champions of a country’s right to sovereignty and self determination, we should at least have serious sympathies towards Ukraine’s cause. Because, fundamentally, this isn’t about “globalists trying to rule the world.” It’s about a dying empire (Russia) trying to quash a vassal that funnily enough doesn’t want to be a vassal anymore.
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This is exactly why I would have thought support for Ukraine would be a point of unity among all Americans, yes. But it seems to be very much the flip side of Israel -- there's a lot of knee-jerk opposition to Israel on the left *just because* the right trends pro-Israel.
 
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ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Terthna said:
Okay; so then do we get to scrutinize and criticize Ukraine again when the conflict is over, or is that just never going to be allowed so long as Russia exists? I mean, I get it; there are no biolabs in Ukraine, fine. But what if they decide to put some there later on; are you going to accuse people who talk about it of being Russian sympathizers, and do the establishment's groundwork for them in silencing dissent?
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It depends on *what* you're scrutinizing and criticizing, and whether you're parroting insultingly obvious Russky propaganda to do so.
 
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