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Dale and Erebor are thousands of miles away.
Dale is closer to Rhun that it is to Gondor.
Dragonstone is a quick sail away from the Andrast mountains, and then around them the Bay of Belfalas.
Dale is closer to Rhun that it is to Gondor.
Dragonstone is a quick sail away from the Andrast mountains, and then around them the Bay of Belfalas.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
I think it's been said that the heightened adrenaline during/after a fight alongside getting REALLY fucking pissed by long marches' what causes them to suddenly do war-crimes on instinct
Though, would be funny if they actually say that, I mean Tywin was pretty sudden in deciding to immediately have his men commit atrocities first before doing anything tactical, as I recall
Fire Magic? I don't think any of the Targaryens ever used magic, except whatever was secretly done to hatch dragon eggs.
Hell, I'm pretty sure most Planetosi magic can barely afford to be casually direct in the usual fantasy sense
Warging, I think required, for the Stark children at least, contact with "magical" creature like the Direwolves.
Speaking of "warging" and "magic" though,
The Strange Talent of Luther Strode (Comic Book) - TV Tropestvtropes.org › ComicBook
Body Supremacy
The power to have full control of one's own body. Sub-power of Self Supremacy. Physical version of Mindshifting. Bio-Feedback Body Mastery/Control/Manipulation Physical Motion Access/Control/Mastery Physical Potency/Superiority Self-Body Domination/Manipulation Supernatural Body Coordination...
powerlisting.fandom.com
I think GRRM was inspired by Dune
Would be kinda awesome, to add in the art of "Self-Warging" on the basis that with finer and greater control, you can master your body and achieve godlike power
Westeros has ancient secret orders of monks, who spend much of their time learning how to master themselves and practice martial arts and meditation and can pierce steel walls with their fingers and stuff
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Say, is it me or neither did Targaryen or Blackfyre Loyalists ever seem to point out how much of an utterly disgusting and horrible douchebag Aegon The Unworthy was?
Or how in all likelihood he was doing things to screw people over before and after his death out of spite?
Don’t think Ser Eustace Osgray and other Blackfyre Loyalists like to remember this fact that was so openly recorded
Or how in all likelihood he was doing things to screw people over before and after his death out of spite?
Don’t think Ser Eustace Osgray and other Blackfyre Loyalists like to remember this fact that was so openly recorded
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Deleted member 88
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Maybe? Tywin is inspired by Edward Longshanks. I think they'd consider his invasion of the Riverlands to be generally stupid, not the way he conducted it but provoking war with most of the kingdom and the fact he didn't say-demand Tyrion be tried in KL. Or otherwise use non military leverage.
His actual conduct in the war, would probably have not phased Henry V, the Black Prince, or Longshanks too much. The Brave Companions and Gregor Clegane would probably be seen as going beyond the pale for sadism's sake. As in, they are so vicious and bloodthirsty they inflame animosity with the people your trying to rule. Like, the fact Tywin keeps such men on retainer would probably raise eye brows.
But burning fields and seizing crops and seeking to draw out the Riverlords? I don't think they'd find that remarkable. As its how they conducted war.
Tywin's big problem is when his pride is slighted he loses his innate pragmatism and good sense for "make the motherfuckers burn-House Lannister ain't taken a hit bitches" mode of thinking. Which...works in the short term but creates more enemies than it destroys.
Combined with his blind spots towards his children-this destroys him.
Historically though-over the top brutality did work, so long as it was used in a concise and controlled manner. Tywin however lacks the prudence and emotional detachment to emulate the Assyrian kings of ancient history, whom I think he embodies more than medieval potentates.
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CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
On average, just how much more horrible are the Mountain’s Men and The Brave Companions
The soldiers look on average do a LOT of murder, rape, torture, pillage and desecrate stuff on a rampage
Hell, I wouldn’t put out rampant pedophilia from the average soldier either
That ex-Septon of the Brave Companions just happens to do it outside of war
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TBH, the Starks ravaged the westerlands and Riverlands too.
Apart of me thinks Martin to keep readers from making too much of a moral equivalence had the Lannister retainers be so vicious as to be almost slapstick.
Apart of me thinks Martin to keep readers from making too much of a moral equivalence had the Lannister retainers be so vicious as to be almost slapstick.
Right, Tywin is supposed to be this master politician, a dude who governed so well people called him the king in all but name and a master at the art of the bluff. Also a war master..but that was the overreaction of a neurotic maniac and was extreme enough to imply fear.
Though less of a cowards kind and more of a cornered animal
It's not so much the brutality of it, more that it's the first thing he resorts too.
Also Clegane, it seems really dumb to let a Vassal like that exist.
More the default mode then it's application.
That's because he was always aware he build a temple on a sewer. Not so much Jaime and Cersei but the whole Reynes and Tarbek bit..
That was my entire point, yes.
You probably hadn't seen shit like that as a Westerosi, nor did your grandpappy or his grandpappy.,
You would have seen shit like that, hilariously from the Starks of Winterfel during the Dance though.
They did so much worse back in the day.
Ned was kinda raised Southron and his pops was enamored with Games of Court...
Had Cregan Stark been in Robbs place..
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
@The Immortal Watch Dog
I think Ned’s behavior is less due to being raised Southern and more due to being raised by Jon Arryn
And even then, I think he was already quietter or less interested in sex, violence, gold etc
Robert was a ward under Jon Arryn and he didn’t turn out like Ned, though TBF guy was probably depressed about his parents and already a whoremonger and glutton before it all
I think Ned’s behavior is less due to being raised Southern and more due to being raised by Jon Arryn
And even then, I think he was already quietter or less interested in sex, violence, gold etc
Robert was a ward under Jon Arryn and he didn’t turn out like Ned, though TBF guy was probably depressed about his parents and already a whoremonger and glutton before it all
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He's a good administrator, (I think his overturning Aegon V's laws gets used against him too much-as its a modern criticism). And as a military commander-he's not inept or stupid, just not a genius. As it is, Tywin was apparently preparing for war before hand-with sellswords at Casterly Rock(and few westermen at the tourney in AGOT). He also considered Stannis a threat "from the beginning". So to pull out my Tywin apologia hat-Tywin saw Cat as operating under husband's authority, the latter who was preparing to conduct a coup and depose Cersei(which Ned was). How much Tywin knew is unclear. But he may have felt that Ned's friendship with the king, Jaimie fleeing KL, and Tyrion as a hostage, alongside Cersei and Robert having a bad marriage-meant that political intervention was no longer possible-he was concerned about Arryn intervention as well IIRC. So...maybe he felt, "I have to attack now before the anti Lannister coalition is too strong to defeat". But its unclear. What he knew and what he did not. Even if he thought, "Stark is conspiring with Tully and taking over-I have to act now"(which is a very charitable interpretation), he should have used diplomacy to demand a trial for Tyrion and brought to bear all that sweet Lannister gold. Because...even if he did foresee some anti Lannister conspiracy, his actions didn't really forestall it or disrupt it. Just ensured he would have the animosity of at least two houses, if not the crown.
Was it though? Jaimie smashed Piper at the Golden Tooth and Riverrun was under siege, he only sent out Clegane after the Whispering Wood(when he was in a weaker position).
Ah I forgot, he sent Gregor out before hand-but that was plausible deniability(well not really). With the aim of capturing Ned. Which could have been disastrous.
Attacking the King's Banner-his objective seems to have been, "lure out Ned, capture him and then trade him for Tyrion". Robert would probably be furious, and if Robert moved to crush him, that would be the end. But Tywin likely thought the King would not get involved. Trade Ned and say "sorry your grace, I've got men hunting Gregor who went off on his own-here take some gold as compensation".
(I do not believe Tywin intended to literally fight Robert)-which goes beyond pride to a level of self delusion that I think is just...not there in the character.
After Robert and Ned's death though the objective changed, peace with Stark and Tully was no longer possible, and Robert's brothers had risen against his grandson. The first objective was-"payback, trade, make peace, save face", the second objective was "I've got a war to win".
Even so, Tywin's biggest flaw is he makes decisions to avenge his pride, "no injure go unavenged", which destroys one enemy but creates two more.
That worked. Due primarily to him having the bulk of the westerlands behind him. It didn't create new enemies-because no one really cared to fight for Ellyn Reyne or Walderan Tarbeck. I personally think the way he handled the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion was brutal but effective. But then again, a major theme in the series is life is not a song-Tywin is living in his own song. The Rains of Castamere. Where he smashes his enemies and toasts grim celebrations at their destruction and the awesome power of House Lannister. It didn't work all the time.
It was standard practice in the hundred year's war and thirty years war.
Tywin treats it emotionally. The Assyrian kings did not. And that is why it doesn't work.
It would basically be a dark vs dark story. People might be rooting for Stannis early, or Renly.
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CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
That makes me wonder, exactly what laws did Tywin overturn? I don't think Westeros has a welfare system to begin with
And I don't think even Tywin would publicly remove laws preventing Nobles from behaving like The Empire from Akame Ga Kiru and murdering large numbers of smallfolk in peacetime for fun
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Aegon V gave the smallfolk more rights. What these rights were exactly is unclear. Probably they had to do with the law and taxes-maybe it would have included things like the right to petition or complain to the crown. The right to maybe accuse your lord of a crime, common law sort of stuff. Natural rights of englishmen perhaps. Would be my guess. Things like just wanton murder of peasants-is...IIRC against the law anyway. Even if it can't be enforced.
Tywin was a noble's noble, and revoked these rights. TBH though, I doubt the average peasant was aware he had gained anything under Aegon V or that he lost anything under Tywin's handship. Remember news travels slowly, and if your an illiterate peasant, your likely not going to be aware of what your king did for you, or why your local lord is unhappy with it.
Tywin was a noble's noble, and revoked these rights. TBH though, I doubt the average peasant was aware he had gained anything under Aegon V or that he lost anything under Tywin's handship. Remember news travels slowly, and if your an illiterate peasant, your likely not going to be aware of what your king did for you, or why your local lord is unhappy with it.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
I dunno, somehow I can see Lords complaining about NOT having the right to sadistically and brutally torture, rob(outside of taxes) and murder their Smallfolk
I mean there was some stuff or hesitation against banning the Right of The First Night when Jaehaerys was talking about it with his council and his wife, the latter of whom I recall pointing out how the whole girls getting their lords bastard child unwillingly is NOT a blessing or "honor"
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I suppose the right of a lord to kill his peasant might have at one point existed. Perhaps in the age of heroes. But it strikes me as something Andal civilization would have disposed of.
It would be rape by the definition of power imbalance. At the same time though, on Dragonstone the Targaryens were seen as godlike beings-so having your silver haired divine lord impregnate your daughter(or your wife) might be seen as an honor. As their seed-their divine, special blood would enter into your family. A similar attitude might exist elsewhere-given in ASOIAF there seem to be implications the noble families are slightly all magical anyway.
It would be rape by the definition of power imbalance. At the same time though, on Dragonstone the Targaryens were seen as godlike beings-so having your silver haired divine lord impregnate your daughter(or your wife) might be seen as an honor. As their seed-their divine, special blood would enter into your family. A similar attitude might exist elsewhere-given in ASOIAF there seem to be implications the noble families are slightly all magical anyway.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
I'm guessing even the earlier Lords/Ladies, Knights and Septons/Septas realized that you can't be extreme murderhobos towards your own people
"Magnar" instead of Lord, I think if the Thenns are a preservation of the Bronze Age First Men, then yeah, leadership was held VERY highly
Gotta say, I'm puzzled that the Wildlings don't think the Thenns themselves to be "kneelers" though I am of the opinion, that Styr & Sigorn are NOT from a straight line of descendants as plenty of people there are cousins/aunts/uncles and leadership can be challenged for
He's larping true enough
His actions all but empowered it which is my point. When you go the Mongol, Roman or Assyrian route, its strategic brutality and tactical savagery. What Tywin Lannister did was the equivalent of an aspie reeing at a Macdonalds due to lacking the appropriate sauce.
None of the Clegane's are especially loyal and it's a family known for mental instability. Putting him out there, against foes who're lead by a guy he knows has a deep political beef with him over the use of the Mountain is..bad optically.
If the guy had gotten caught...y'know he'd say "Yeah Tywin told me too! But fuck it! I'd have done it any way!"
Same as when he confessed to butchering Elia and the Targs.
Robert who was already chafing under the Lannister influence and was not in any way happy about placing Jaime in a position over Robin?
I do not believe Tywin was thinking at all, I don't believe he actually sat down, took a breath and thought about what he was doing until Tyrion threw that cup on the floor and called Adamm or whoever it was a tard for thinking they had a snow balls chance in a dragon pit of unfucking this mess.
And the moment he did I believe Tywin just shrugged and went "fuck it, can't roll back the clock, lets try and make something out of this and uhh they all deserved it for defaming my grandkids!" Because Tywin Lannister is less the Hammer of the Scots and more Vito Genovese.
Brilliant, opportunistic and calculating, but not a Luciano or a Lansky, much less an augustus or an Ieyasu as the fans often make him out to be and ultimately a thug who thinks with his balls 30% of the time.
And Tywin, had he ridden straight for the Red Keep and appointed Ser Kevan in charge of marshaling the power of the west would have prevented it from coming to that.,..Perhaps not Robert but Ned? Yeah absolutely.
No, Tywin is a neurotic thug, he makes decisions based off an irrational fear that not smashing toddlers against a wall will magically result in the destruction of his house because his daddy was kind of a cuck. This extends to every facet of how the man governs the westerlands...
There are other Westerosi leaders who were brutal, savage, cruel and objective enough to know when it was time to smile and laugh and party and when it was time to spike toddlers and when you condemned such actions and when you passively tolerated them.
Tywin was never one of them. Fundamentally he would have been remembered as a depraved idiot had he not been such an astounding bureaucrat.
the problem was less how he handled it...And more that he learned the wrong lesson from handling it.
Sperging out wasn't standard practice.
Slaughter was.
Big fucking difference.
An Assyrian description of the Rains of Castamere would be hilariously dry though.
"His women I did have raped, their breasts my hulking thugs did remove, dogs were fed their meat. Their halls I did surround, the rivers I compelled to be dropped upon them. Their children I had drowned, their mines I did flood and their wealth I did deprive from the world forever to avenge Lannister honor"
It'd be an interesting fic though, because I don't think anyone of that era would be prepared to address someone whose response to a demand to surrender would be "Joffrey Waters, when I take the Red Keep I will hang you by your entrails on the palace heart tree"
As opposed to...how the North fought then.
Cregan turning the Boltons loose in the Westerlands for example..And probably making a deal with the Iron Born...
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Okay, let’s say there is an anti Lannister conspiracy, that Tywin may have seen. What does he do when diplomacy and bribery are no longer an option? At that point, war is the only alternative. Not to mention-reputation, “no man sheds Lannister blood with impunity”. When you build up a reputation as the toughest guy in the cell/street-it has to be maintained.
“None of the Clegane's are especially loyal and it's a family known for mental instability. Putting him out there, against foes who're lead by a guy he knows has a deep political beef with him over the use of the Mountain is..bad optically.”
Gregor is a mad dog, and Sandor is Joffrey’s sworn sword. Clegane’s keep was given to a loyal kennel master. So I’m not sure why you think they’re weren’t loyal.
Robert didn’t punish the Lannister’s for Elia, he didn’t for Jaimie killing the king, or Lady. Tywin may have believed.Robert had gone to pasture and would not go to war.
Okay this is where I disagree with the “Tywin is dumb and or neurotic” school in the fandom. Like, first off going to war on a whim doesn’t happen. You have to think about it in the midst of preparing for it. Tywin’s thought process may have been emotional, that doesn’t mean-“let’s go burn shit, fuck yeah” was his thinking.
Tywin could be polite, he could be diplomatic, and even subservient. At least in public. You don’t become hand of the king to Aerys and not learn how to smile, laugh, and act like you don’t despise the person your working with or under. Tywin cared a lot about “saving face” and reputation. Acting like a thug every other day doesn’t give the reputation of the proud and mighty lord of Lannister. I really disagree with you here.
Which was?
Did you read ACOK/AGOT? Tywin does a lot of slaughter and conducts much the same war as the Black Prince or Henry V-that is burning crops and killing peasants to force his enemies to meet him.
Which goes to show Tywin is a passionate man.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
I think Ned’s a rare man amongst nobility for both the North & the South
He’s not ambitious or greedy or petty or bloodthirsty or addicted to vice
Hell, he’s pretty satisfied with what he’s already got and just wants to do his job and be right by people
Might have already been disinterested in many vices before fostering with Jon Arryn, even, so not really so tempted by said vices and he’s actually horrified and saddened by war but sees it as a necessity
Contrast with Robert who was already into lots of vices before Jon Arryn and being fostered by him didn’t prevent him from enjoying his vices or having reluctance.
You order your most loyal bannerman..In this case his brother, who knows his mind better than anyone save Tyrion. To marshal his armies, to prepare for war and ride out to Kingslanding to tard wrangle your idiot grandson while moving the Western forces towards the Riverlands, you also order any spies or mercenaries you have in the "field" to put out as many offers of bribes as possible and order sassassinations.
You use the threat of war and sabotage first, when that fails as it would..you go to war with your hands "clean" saying you were provoked as all peaceful solutions were rejected by an irate teenager..you as the lion start caring about the opinion of the sheep so they don't scramble behind the wolf back coming to take a piece out of your ass. So when you do need to start destroying cities it can be posthumously said that you did all that you could to avoid it..So as to ensure your great grandkids don't spend half their lives dealing with a hyper resentful continent out for blood?
"Yes I raped her and I smashed her head just like this!"
"Fuck the king"
The Cleganes were by no means loyal...Admitting to what he did to Elia Martel, was an even bigger act of treason against Tywin than Sandor fucking off was. It certainly placed his family in mortal danger.
Robert didn't punish anyone for Lady's death because it was a fucking dog.
And a fat ass commoner isn't worth a minor lord much less his wife's nagging.
Big difference...Between that and
"My lord your father in law evidently ordered the kidnapping and torture of your best friend and is invading the Riverlands"
No I never said it was "lets go burn shit fuck yeah"
I said it was "REEEEEE MUH MUH DADDY'S CUCKERY...REEEE..MUH MIDGET SON..REEE MUH SAVING FACE"
And what followed was a monumental sperg out that essentially ensured the decline of his house. Tywin Lannister needed a therapy animal and a behavior management Maester but he never got it..
You think Tywin Lannister smiled and laughed off anything Aerys did? Nothing in any material supports that..he endured it in cruel silence and visited retribution on everyone and their mother the first chance he got.
That it needed to become his default method of problem solving.
You realize there's a big ass difference between when Edward of Woodstock and King Henry did it, and Tywins spazzing. The situations were quite different...Especially the build up.
So was Al Capone.
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CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Say, how many plans does anyone think Tywin had in-regards to Joffrey’s extremely psychotic and stupid behavior? Wishing for him to change and be fit for his legacy would mostly him putting sheer pride against pragmatism
I don't know if he had any. Mostly because I don't think he grasped how far gone Joffrey was at that point and then Joffrey was assassinated and he probably just breathed a quiet sigh of relief.