Culture Conservatives Optics Problem & Historical Revisionism/Iconoclasm

[CarlManvers2019]

Um, hello? I'm right here.

By sheer comparison, you’re not Left anymore

By sheer comparison, I think you’re among the few actually to truly want something moderate and be willing to see if there are ways to do those laws without unintended side effects and to remake them when they have said unintended side effects

You’re thinking with your head ABD heart and NOT solely with your “heart”

 

[Floridaman]

Um, hello? I'm right here.




Honestly, I think you need to calm down. You and I have agreed on many things, including our contention with certain right-wing arguments and positions, so I want you to listen to me when I say that I think you're going a bit overboard here. You're applying a moral judgement to people who hold a particular position that you disagree with, and insisting that they must be shunned because of that.

Sometimes, people don't want to admit the other side might have a point because they don't think it does. And the thing is? I am not right-wing, I am left; and I reject the validity of your argument entirely. I believe that the left is wrong about the statues, that you are wrong about the statues, and if that's all it takes for you to want to cut me out of the conversation; well, the ignore button is right there. I'd miss talking with you, but the decision is yours to make.

To be honest this is my view as well, I am a Libertarian, are there people here I disagree with, of course. Do I want them silenced, of course not. I am not afraid of people having different opinions.

 

[Bacle]

Do you know any instances where they did that, unless you mean the media saying it because we all have seen them lie. Besides I thought witch hunts were bad, unless you want to punish everyone based on rumor, evidence is needed.

Well yes, given my neighbor revealed himself as a closet racist to me because he thought I was like minded. This is a man who made a career as a city attorney, is part of the local GOP election/vote collecting group (we have mail in voting for everyone), and has a part time job working for the building permitting office now.

Honestly, I think you need to calm down. You and I have agreed on many things, including our contention with certain right-wing arguments and positions, so I want you to listen to me when I say that I think you're going a bit overboard here. You're applying a moral judgement to people who hold a particular position that you disagree with, and insisting that they must be shunned because of that.

Sometimes, people don't want to admit the other side might have a point because they don't think it does. And the thing is? I am not right-wing, I am left; and I reject the validity of your argument entirely. I believe that the left is wrong about the statues, that you are wrong about the statues, and if that's all it takes for you to want to cut me out of the conversation; well, the ignore button is right there. I'd miss talking with you, but the decision is yours to make.

You and I can disagree about statues, which is part of what makes this country great. I understand why you want them left alone, and your reasoning actually has some points to it beside being about a knee-jerk tribal reaction to a position the Left takes.

I only put people on Ignore when I know their is nothing worth hearing out of their mouths, based on their personality and/or philosophical axioms; that is very much not the case with you and most people here.

However, understand that it is very hard to be calm when dogpiled for daring to agree with the some of the Left's points. It is hard to be calm living next to a closet racist who you have no real ability to get away from, someone you held up as an example of a Good Republican for years, and cannot confront because of knock on effects from doing so. It is hard to be calm when you feel under attack from both sides for not being ideologically pure enough, and are having to cut people out of your life just to stay sane.

Here's the thing, and you've done it several times in this line of reasoning.

Who are these people? You're throwing around, repeatedly, vague allusions to "these people," "closet racists," and "I have no doubt they exist." When pressed for what your ideas were it turned out to not address actual racism but complain about statues, and then complain that an open air museum is in the open air which makes little sense.

Who are these people? You seem to be referring to some kind of invisible racists nobody can detect but you're sure they're there. They're not in power, they got kicked out, there's little else to be done. They can't be made silent without violating their rights. They can't be ordered not to vote without violating their rights. They can't be preventing from protesting, marching, or meeting without violating their rights. They can't be prevented from publishing their ideas without violating their rights. What's left?

If you can point to a person or persons that exist, and a behavior that can be curbed without violating their rights, then we have somewhere to go. But as long as your issue is with invisible racists, I'm just going to go about destroying invisible statues to dissuade them.

See what I said about my neighbor.

 

[Floridaman]

Well yes, given my neighbor revealed himself as a closet racist to me because he thought I was like minded. This is a man who was a made a career as a city attorney, is part of the local GOP election/vote collecting group (we have mail in voting for everyone), and has a part time job working for the building permitting office now.
You and I can disagree about statues, which is part of what makes this country great. I understand why you want them left alone, and your reasoning actually has some points to it beside being about a knee-jerk tribal reaction to a position the Left takes.

I only put people on Ignore when I know their is nothing worth hearing out of their mouths, based on their personality and/or philosophical axioms; that is very much not the case with you and most people here.

However, understand that it is very hard to be calm when dogpiled for daring to agree with the some of the Left's points. It is hard to be calm living next to a closet racist who you have no real ability to get away from, someone you held up as an example of a Good Republican for years, and cannot confront because of knock on effects from doing so. It is hard to be calm when you feel under attack from both sides for not being ideologically pure enough, and are having to cut people out of your life just to stay sane.
See what I said about my neighbor.

You do realize the Republican party can’t read minds right, how would they know your neighbor was? You said he revealed himself to you. Ok, Were GOP officials present because if not how would they know to kick him out? After all you said you weren’t aware either, if I recall you said you were close, you probably know him way more than any party official does.
As for dog piling part of that is the nature of forums, the dissenter will always be facing multiple people at once, but I do agree we should try to limit the number of arguments you are facing at once.

 

[The One Char]

If you guys haven't noticed, this whole thing with his neighbor has kinda broken his mind.

 

[Terthna]

By sheer comparison, you’re not Left anymore

By sheer comparison, I think you’re among the few actually to truly want something moderate and be willing to see if there are ways to do those laws without unintended side effects and to remake them when they have said unintended side effects

You’re thinking with your head ABD heart and NOT solely with your “heart”

I appreciate the sentiment, but I do hold quite a few left-wing positions; if not in the exact same way most mainstream leftists do. I've had my fair share of disagreements on this forum, as many will attest.

You and I can disagree about statues, which is part of what makes this country great. I understand why you want them left alone, and your reasoning actually has some points to it beside being about a knee-jerk tribal reaction to a position the Left takes.

I only put people on Ignore when I know their is nothing worth hearing out of their mouths, based on their personality and/or philosophical axioms; that is very much not the case with you and most people here.

However, understand that it is very hard to be calm when dogpiled for daring to agree with the some of the Left's points. It is hard to be calm living next to a closet racist who you have no real ability to get away from, someone you held up as an example of a Good Republican for years, and cannot confront because of knock on effects from doing so. It is hard to be calm when you feel under attack from both sides for not being ideologically pure enough, and are having to cut people out of your life just to stay sane.

Trust me, I know exactly how you feel; I've expressed similar sentiments before in our PMs, and put people in my own ignore list for similar reasons. That said, maybe you should take some time and step back; get away from all the madness, and focus on your own mental health. I would normally recommend taking a vacation from the internet, as it has done wonders for me when I feel overwhelmed, but considering how much of your stress is more close to home, perhaps you should take up meditation; I heard it can help.

 

[Floridaman]

If you guys haven't noticed, this whole thing with his neighbor has kinda broken his mind.

We all react viscerally when something affects us. The rioters who attacked me gave me a violent reaction as well, but I recovered and am able to think clearly.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

I appreciate the sentiment, but I do hold quite a few left-wing positions; if not in the exact same way most mainstream leftists do. I've had my fair share of disagreements on this forum, as many will attest.

You're still using your head and your heart together, instead of simply your "heart"

 

[Deleted member 88]

This whole discussion is emblematic of the problems in American political and social discourse.

It’s entirely driven by emotion. Sure some people have traumatic or unhappy experiences and so can not “calm down”, but half the reason we’re in this mess is because people don’t calm down and just you know use common sense and basic reasoning abilities.

That is ultimately what makes any project in self government unsustainable-people must be rational. They must be willing to restrain and even repress their emotions and use their minds, not their hearts.

The statue attackers are motivated entirely by emotion, many of us here are emotional, to the point of hyperventilation and borderline hysteria.

This state is neither productive nor desirable and is ultimately not helping anybody.

I’d encourage everyone to take deep breaths, walk away for an hour if they must, and if they wish to discuss-do so in a manner of calmness and centered-ness.

 

[Floridaman]

You're still using your head and your heart together, instead of simply your "heart"

That shouldn’t be a left or right thing.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

That shouldn’t be a left or right thing.

Going against Collectivism and being able to against the flow by feeling, thinking-through, researching and discovering is pretty much revolutionary

 

[Terthna]

You're still using your head and your heart together, instead of simply your "heart"

Perhaps, but I'm far from perfect; I have listened more to my heart than my head at times, often with rather embarrassing results, especially in retrospect. Like last month, when I got defensive and lashed out over my belief that Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq; not my proudest moment.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Perhaps, but I'm far from perfect; I have listened more to my heart than my head at times, often with rather embarrassing results, especially in retrospect. Like last month, when I got defensive and lashed out over my belief that Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq; not my proudest moment.

The fact that you are able and willing to look on your past mistakes shows you are a good man at heart.

No one's perfect, but the fact people can look back on their mistakes and try to be better or at least acknowledge their faults, helps keep people from falling into worse stuff

Glad to have YOU as one of our resident Democrats, instead of guys like Realm

 

[DarthOne]

Perhaps, but I'm far from perfect; I have listened more to my heart than my head at times, often with rather embarrassing results, especially in retrospect. Like last month, when I got defensive and lashed out over my belief that Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq; not my proudest moment.

Very few people are and I think we've all been there. I'm certainly not an exception.

And as Carl said:

The fact that you are able and willing to look on your past mistakes shows you are a good man at heart.

No one's perfect, but the fact people can look back on their mistakes and try to be better or at least acknowledge their faults, helps keep people from falling into worse stuff

Glad to have YOU as one of our resident Democrats, instead of guys like Realm

 

[LifeisTiresome]

Going after Jefferson and the like is uncalled for, and I have never supported that type of stuff.

Getting Confederate items out of public and government spaces is not at all the same thing.

I am not 'appeasing' anyone with my distaste for Confederate symbols and they represent.

The thing though is that leftists don't stop. They never stop. They have shown that once you give them an inch. They will make moves to take a mile or demand you give them a mile next.

Once you allowed them to take down the confederate statues, they will start making moves to take other things down. We now see talk of destroying Jefferson and Washington. Give it time. They will demand all the US founding fathers to be taken down.

Look at Japan, it has continued to apologize and give reparations to Korea. But Korea demands more and will continue to demand more for years upon years to come.

Thats the problem with this whole appease your enemy for your or your ancestors wrong doing. It never fucking ends.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Once you allowed them to take down the confederate statues, they will start making moves to take other things down. We now see talk of destroying Jefferson and Washington. Give it time. They will demand all the US founding fathers to be taken down.

They'll blow up Mt Rushmore and then try blowing up the remains of said mountain until it's just a big hole in the ground

There went the entire armed forces' budget, into using every single explosive to destroy every bit of what they hate about America

 

[LifeisTiresome]

They'll blow up Mt Rushmore and then try blowing up the remains of said mountain until it's just a big hole in the ground

There went the entire armed forces' budget, into using every single explosive to destroy every bit of what they hate about America

Exactly. Why @Bacle can't understand this I have no idea.

 

[Arch Dornan]

They'll blow up Mt Rushmore and then try blowing up the remains of said mountain until it's just a big hole in the ground

There went the entire armed forces' budget, into using every single explosive to destroy every bit of what they hate about America

After that it'll be book burning all the media they don't like.

 

[LifeisTiresome]

After that it'll be book burning all the media they don't like.

They already do that. I have seen videos where they burn books written by old white people.

 

[Arch Dornan]

They already do that. I have seen videos where they burn books written by old white people.

I don't mean just books. Anything created by white people for entertainment. Your games, your movies all of them.