Culture Conservatives Optics Problem & Historical Revisionism/Iconoclasm

[Terthna]

That is one way to see those monuments, and not unreasonable from certain perspectives.

However the fact is there are a growing number of people who do not see them as reminders to learn from and not repeat. They see them as giving dignity and honor to the symbols of traitors, or as rallying places for white supremacists/Neo-Nazi's/Confederate apologists.

Putting them in a museum keeps them safe, preserves them so they can teach those lessons, and doesn't outright destroy them as much of the Left want.

It is also a fact that those same people see you and I, and everyone on this forum, as Nazis who deserve death; I don't see how giving ground to them on the issue of statues will accomplish anything other than further emboldening them.

 

[Bacle]

It is also a fact that those same people see you and I, and everyone on this forum, as Nazis who deserve death; I don't see how giving ground to them on the issue of statues will accomplish anything other than further emboldening them.

Except they don't, for the most part.

Some of the Far-Left do simply want anyone right of Bernie dead, that's true. However, some simply do not like Confederate monuments and such remaining in public places or on government land.

The problem here is most of you are trying to paint the people on the left as monolithic in thinking, intentions, and actions. This isn't the case, and this issue is a wonderful example of people losing the nuances of the subject to tribal partisanship out of fear of ANY compromise.

 

[Floridaman]

The remaining police may instead of arresting them, decide to STAND in solidarity with them

STAND NOT KNEEL

Nature abhors a vacuum. Order will come from chaos regardless of what people want.

 

[Floridaman]

Except they don't, for the most part.

Some of the Far-Left do simply want anyone right of Bernie dead, that's true. However, some simply do not like Confederate monuments and such remaining in public places or on government land.

The problem here is most of you are trying to paint the people on the left as monolithic in thinking, intentions, and actions. This isn't the case, and this issue is a wonderful example of people losing the nuances of the subject to tribal partisanship out of fear of ANY compromise.

The problem is, you are saying the right needs to recognize their fringe as a problem which as others have said they already remove it whenever they can, but also in the same argument saying the left isn't monolithic and thus their problems don't represent them. Why is the right being treated as more monolithic? Look I agree with many of your concerns but you can surely see why people are annoyed at being told to consider theirfringe as a problem when the other group isn't held to the same standards.

 

[Bacle]

The problem is, you are saying the right needs to recognize their fringe as a problem which as others have said they already remove it whenever they can, but also in the same argument saying the left isn't monolithic and thus their problems don't represent them. Why is the right being treated as more monolithic? Look I agree with many of your concerns but you can surely see why people are annoyed at being told to consider theirfringe as a problem when the other group isn't held to the same standards.

I don't care if it upsets them anymore, because this is shit that needed saying.

I bring these issues up because the simple fact is I actually believe the Right is capable of doing the hard work needed to clean house and improve their image. If I didn't think these issues could be addressed, successfully, and lead to yanking out some of the 'moral superiority' from the Left, I wouldn't bother.

But I'm beginning to think I'm wasting my time, because I'm not seeing much willingness on the Right to do some self-examination of why the Left has been so successful in their 'lies' and misinformation.

 

[Floridaman]

I don't care if it upsets them anymore, because this is shit that needed saying.

I bring these issues up because the simple fact is I actually believe the Right is capable of doing the hard work needed to clean house and improve their image. If I didn't think these issues could be addressed, successfully, and lead to yanking out some of the 'moral superiority' from the Left, I wouldn't bother.

But I'm beginning to think I'm wasting my time, because I'm not seeing much willingness on the Right to do some self-examination of why the Left has been so successful in their 'lies' and misinformation.

Given things like Covington I somehow doubt the image would improve, the media is willing to make stuff up wholesale to get the narrative they want. At the end of the day all sides are human, expecting one side to be saints is a bit naive.

 

[The One Char]

I don't care if it upsets them anymore, because this is shit that needed saying.

I bring these issues up because the simple fact is I actually believe the Right is capable of doing the hard work needed to clean house and improve their image. If I didn't think these issues could be addressed, successfully, and lead to yanking out some of the 'moral superiority' from the Left, I wouldn't bother.

But I'm beginning to think I'm wasting my time, because I'm not seeing much willingness on the Right to do some self-examination of why the Left has been so successful in their 'lies' and misinformation.

You need to accept that none on the left act in good faith. Including your "friends".

 

[Floridaman]

You need to accept that none on the left act in good faith. Including your "friends".

I wouldnt say that I think some do, and are following the mob. And others just arent aware no doubt the crowd in Philly who fought the rioters probably dont consider themselves on the right.but it is odd that the right which is comprised of many factions are expected to be perfect, and responsible for anyone who chooses to call themselves on the right htbut for the left we have to consider them as individuals

 

[S'task]

One thing the Right could do is not try to act like removing Confederate monuments and such is so horrible. Trump's reasoning for not renaming bases does not hold for slave auction blocks, Confederate flags, and the like on public/gov grounds.

Stop fighting their removal from public places, and it could help start to change the perception of the GOP.

No one is going to forget slavery and Jim Crow happened just because those bits are no longer displayed in public.

OK, now wait a moment. You have moved from the right having to push out fringe reactionary positions to now labelling idea that splits nearly 50/50 even among the independents. What you are advocating for is not taking a position that is more moral, what you are saying that Republicans need to do is adopt the Democrat's policy position while rejecting the position supported by the majority of their base, which alienates that base and will sway how many independents (because it sure as hell won't swing Democrats towards them) who are close to evenly divided on the issue.

Setting that aside, the so-called debate around this issue is entirely without nuance and the Progressives has dishonestly kept moving the goalposts on this matter. Originally when the topic began coming up they wanted the removal of the cheap mass produced confederate monuments that had been placed in front of court houses and the like as symbols of White Supremacy, etc. They explicitly kept repeating that statues with "Historical significance" wouldn't be targeted for removal. They are not calling for the removal of all monuments for Confederates, with a particularly hot flashpoint being the statue of Robert E. Lee in Richmond Virginia.

This statue is, in fact, the perfect example of everything they claimed they DIDN'T want to take down. It was erected in 1890, decades before the wave of confederate statues that were put up. It was put up, originally, in a place OUTSIDE of the city limits of Richmond in a freaking tobacco field, not at the site of any government building or other major parts of the city (the city has since grown around it and it became the centerpiece of what is now called "Monument Avenue" which features multiple statues depicting famous Virginians, thus, effectively in an outdoor museum). It is a unique monument, not mass produced, and thus having artistic merit. In point of fact, even documents of the time show that the focus on the monument had nothing to do with white supremacy or even the Lost Cause narrative, but rather, was about memorializing Lee himself.

Thus, the statue of Lee was is everything they claimed they wanted to allow to continue to be memorialized. But now, no, it must go too.

Furthermore, you are entirely accepting of the Progressive narrative regarding these statues. You are working within their moral framework, and that is a moral framework most on the right reject. So what it appears your are advocating for is actually that the right adopt the progressive moral framework, just not be as extreme as them about it. That way doesn't lead to fixing the problems, it just makes the Repubicans Democrat!lite.

 

[Bacle]

Given things like Covington I somehow doubt the image would improve, the media is willing to make stuff up wholesale to get the narrative they want. At the end of the day all sides are human, expecting one side to be saints is a bit naive.

I'm not expecting the Right to be saints, but I do expect them to be aware enough to know that they have issues they could address, if they cared to.

You need to accept that none on the left act in good faith. Including your "friends".

This simply isn't true, and is another act of pure tribalism.

OK, now wait a moment. You have moved from the right having to push out fringe reactionary positions to now labelling idea that splits nearly 50/50 even among the independents. What you are advocating for is not taking a position that is more moral, what you are saying that Republicans need to do is adopt the Democrat's policy position while rejecting the position supported by the majority of their base, which alienates that base and will sway how many independents (because it sure as hell won't swing Democrats towards them) wo are close to evenly divided on the issue.

Setting that aside, the so-called debate around this issue is entirely without nuance and the Progressives has dishonestly kept moving the goalposts on this matter. Originally when the topic began coming up they wanted the removal of the cheap mass produced confederate monuments that had been placed in front of court houses and the like as symbols of White Supremacy, etc. They explicitly kept repeating that statues with "Historical significance" wouldn't be targeted for removal. They are not calling for the removal of all monuments for Confederates, with a particularly hot flashpoint being the statue of Robert E. Lee in Richmond Virginia.

This statue is, in fact, the perfect example of everything they claimed they DIDN'T want to take down. It was erected in 1890, decades before the wave of confederate statues that were put up. It was put up, originally, in a place OUTSIDE of the city limits of Richmond in a freaking tobacco field, not at the site of any government building or other major parts of the city (the city has since grown around it and it became the centerpiece of what is now called "Monument Avenue" which features multiple statues depicting famous Virginians, thus, effectively in an outdoor museum). It is a unique monument, not mass produced, and thus having artistic merit. In point of fact, even documents of the time show that the focus on the monument had nothing to do with white supremacy or even the Lost Cause narrative, but rather, was about memorializing Lee himself.

Thus, the statue of Lee was is everything they claimed they wanted to allow to continue to be memorialized. But now, no, it must go too.

That particular Lee statue is more nuanced, I agree.

But he's still a traitor at the end of the day, and fought against the Union to uphold slavery. His statue belongs in a dedicated museum to either the Civil War or similar place, not in public view in the open.

Edit: As for taking Dem positions, have you ever considered they might be right on a few issues? I highly doubt many on the Right won't vote simply because the GOP agrees to the removal of Confederate symbols and such, while it may get some independents to move this way.

But whatever, I guess it doesn't matter, because no one wants to admit the other side might have a point now and then. I'm about ready to just stop voting, because I can see neither side wants to actually deal with the devils in their own house.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

I'm not expecting the Right to be saints, but I do expect them to be aware enough to know that they have issues they could address, if they cared to.

How can they deal with them? Those actual NeoNazi’s who popped up in Charlotteseville once have a leader or membership who’ve been there for a LONG time

Try talking them down? Tell them they’re banned from ever associating with anyone remotely right wing?

I’m gonna have to doubt they even like Laissez Affaire Capitalism or know what it is

 

[Floridaman]

How can they deal with them? Those actual NeoNazi’s who popped up in Charlotteseville once have a leader or membership who’ve been there for a LONG time

Try talking them down? Tell them they’re banned from ever associating with anyone remotely right wing?

I’m gonna have to doubt they even like Laissez Affaire Capitalism or know what it is

They already tell them they arent welcome if you haven't noted, the right already shuts them down whenever they appear.

 

[The One Char]

I'm not expecting the Right to be saints, but I do expect them to be aware enough to know that they have issues they could address, if they cared to.
This simply isn't true, and is another act of pure tribalism.
The Lee statue is more nuanced, I agree.

But he's still a traitor at the end of the day, and fought against the Union to uphold slavery. His statue belongs in a dedicated museum to either the Civil War or similar place, not in public view in the open.

I'm a life long dem who voted for Obama and Hillary. I saw my party go insane over not getting what they wanted. They don't care about people or truth, they care about winning.

Trump is not as bad as Obama, a guy I voted for.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

They already tell them they arent welcome if you haven't noted, the right already shuts them down whenever they appear.

Maybe telling them off isn't enough, Proud Boys vs KKK

KKK is confused by the number of non-whites amongst Proud Boys, CNN tapes it and gets horrified later when they realize those were Proud Boys beating up a bunch of guys who like some racist socialist Austrian Peasant without a hint of royal blood

 

[Floridaman]

Maybe telling them off isn't enough, Proud Boys vs KKK

KKK is confused by the number of non-whites amongst Proud Boys, CNN tapes it and gets horrified later when they realize those were Proud Boys beating up a bunch of guys who like some racist socialist Austrian Peasant without a hint of royal blood

Those groups already fight each other, and more street violence is something we want to avoid right now and in general.

 

[Bacle]

Given that they already purge any member who can be proven as racist what exactly do you want, because s

And when they know someone is a racist, but keep them around because they are clever and smart enough not to say shit where it can leak out to media or social media?

Because I have no doubt no that this happens, and am no longer willing to give the Right the benefit of the doubt on these issues.

That's what I mean by cleaning house, actually dealing with the closet racists and ethnonationalist, not simply ignoring them to get votes.

I'm a life long dem who voted for Obama and Hillary. I saw my party go insane over not getting what they wanted. They don't care about people or truth, they care about winning.

Trump is not as bad as Obama, a guy I voted for.

I voted Dem my whole life and voted for Obama twice as well. I know how insane some parts of it have become.

But I have also seen the realities of what the average person on both sides thinks, and how they think the other side thinks. There is a huge gap there, one I have repeatedly tried to help bridge, only to get dogpiled for it almost every time.

I'm tired of trying to help bring understanding to people, on both sides, who don't want to hear it.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Those groups already fight each other, and more street violence is something we want to avoid right now and in general.

Okay, well I guess in the end lies in the media, gotta beat the Far Left media with your own voices

Though the Far Left’s coopted companies so that platforms like youtube or google are being used to try avoiding watching people who speak differently

Word of mouth by those still subscribing and looking is among the only ways available to spread the news still

 

[Floridaman]

And when they know someone is a racist, but keep them around because they are clever and smart enough not to say shit where it can leak out to media or social media?

Because I have no doubt no that this happens, and am no longer willing to give the Right the benefit of the doubt on these issues.

That's what I mean by cleaning house, actually dealing with the closet racists and ethnonationalist, not simply ignoring them to get votes.
I voted Dem my whole life and voted for Obama twice as well. I know how insane some parts of it have become.

But I have also seen the realities of what the average person on both sides thinks, and how they think the other side thinks. There is a huge gap there, one I have repeatedly tried to help bridge, only to get dogpiled for it almost every time.

I'm tired of trying to help bring understanding to people, on both sides, who don't want to hear it.

Do you know any instances where they did that, unless you mean the media saying it because we all have seen them lie. Besides I thought witch hunts were bad, unless you want to punish everyone based on rumor, evidence is needed.

 

[Terthna]

You need to accept that none on the left act in good faith. Including your "friends".

Um, hello? I'm right here.

I'm not expecting the Right to be saints, but I do expect them to be aware enough to know that they have issues they could address, if they cared to.
This simply isn't true, and is another act of pure tribalism.
That particular Lee statue is more nuanced, I agree.

But he's still a traitor at the end of the day, and fought against the Union to uphold slavery. His statue belongs in a dedicated museum to either the Civil War or similar place, not in public view in the open.

Edit: As for taking Dem positions, have you ever considered they might be right on a few issues? I highly doubt many on the Right won't vote simply because the GOP agrees to the removal of Confederate symbols and such, while it may get some independents to move this way.

But whatever, I guess it doesn't matter, because no one wants to admit the other side might have a point now and then. I'm about ready to just stop voting, because I can see neither side wants to actually deal with the devils in their own house.

Honestly, I think you need to calm down. You and I have agreed on many things, including our contention with certain right-wing arguments and positions, so I want you to listen to me when I say that I think you're going a bit overboard here. You're applying a moral judgement to people who hold a particular position that you disagree with, and insisting that they must be shunned because of that.

Sometimes, people don't want to admit the other side might have a point because they don't think it does. And the thing is? I am not right-wing, I am left; and I reject the validity of your argument entirely. I believe that the left is wrong about the statues, that you are wrong about the statues, and if that's all it takes for you to want to cut me out of the conversation; well, the ignore button is right there. I'd miss talking with you, but the decision is yours to make.

 

[Bear Ribs]

And when they know someone is a racist, but keep them around because they are clever and smart enough not to say shit where it can leak out to media or social media?

Because I have no doubt no that this happens, and am no longer willing to give the Right the benefit of the doubt on these issues.

Here's the thing, and you've done it several times in this line of reasoning.

Who are these people? You're throwing around, repeatedly, vague allusions to "these people," "closet racists," and "I have no doubt they exist." When pressed for what your ideas were it turned out to not address actual racism but complain about statues, and then complain that an open air museum is in the open air which makes little sense.

Who are these people? You seem to be referring to some kind of invisible racists nobody can detect but you're sure they're there. They're not in power, they got kicked out, there's little else to be done. They can't be made silent without violating their rights. They can't be ordered not to vote without violating their rights. They can't be preventing from protesting, marching, or meeting without violating their rights. They can't be prevented from publishing their ideas without violating their rights. What's left?

If you can point to a person or persons that exist, and a behavior that can be curbed without violating their rights, then we have somewhere to go. But as long as your issue is with invisible racists, I'm just going to go about destroying invisible statues to dissuade them.