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Messing with the greatest reserve of oxygen producers on the planet to deal with cow farts strikes me as about as absurd and dangerous as getting chemotherapy because you think shaving your head is tedious.

It also speaks volumes for the sheer ignorance of the so called scientists involved with environmentalism.

Namely the only reason why soil in the Americas is so preposterously healthy is because of megafauna eating and shitting and farting nonstop for 50,000 years.

It's why pleistoscene rewilding is catching on.

We don't need less cow shit. We need more

We should also be adding elephant farts back to the list of American gastric based terraforming. :ROFLMAO:

Tldr less New York hipsters and Bay area soyboys and more gigantic animals farting!
 
We once had herds of bison roaming the continent so large you could see nothing but bison from horizon to horizon, many such herds covering the entire midwest.

Their farts (it's actually burps but farts are more amusing, I know) did not cause global warming in the past.

Somehow much tinier herds of much smaller cattle* are a problem now. This is quite curious and tends to make me deeply suspicious of ecologists worried about our paltry cattle herds' contributions unless they have a good explanation for why the bison weren't causing the same.

*Before anyone needs to double-check, yes, bison are ruminants like cattle and produce methane through the same digestive process, except lots more of it since a bison is absurdly large at 6-7 feet tall at the shoulder.
 
We once had herds of bison roaming the continent so large you could see nothing but bison from horizon to horizon, many such herds covering the entire midwest.

Their farts (it's actually burps but farts are more amusing, I know) did not cause global warming in the past.

Somehow much tinier herds of much smaller cattle* are a problem now. This is quite curious and tends to make me deeply suspicious of ecologists worried about our paltry cattle herds' contributions unless they have a good explanation for why the bison weren't causing the same.

*Before anyone needs to double-check, yes, bison are ruminants like cattle and produce methane through the same digestive process, except lots more of it since a bison is absurdly large at 6-7 feet tall at the shoulder.
there were an estimated 60+ million bison pre-1800

there's 94.4 million cows and calves in USA

considering that a bison is bigger than a cow on average as you said, I'd call BS on whatever those green commies are yapping about.

They're probably low T weak ass vegans anyway.
 
there were an estimated 60+ million bison pre-1800

there's 94.4 million cows and calves in USA

considering that a bison is bigger than a cow on average as you said, I'd call BS on whatever those green commies are yapping about.

They're probably low T weak ass vegans anyway.

At one point in Argentina we had more cows than there were people in China at the same time.

It didn't do much to fuck with our average temperature and did wonders for the soil.

They literally damned smaller rivers with their feces though and were a legitimate travel hazard so they were culled.

But not for environmental concerns, not entirely.
 
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there were an estimated 60+ million bison pre-1800

there's 94.4 million cows and calves in USA

considering that a bison is bigger than a cow on average as you said, I'd call BS on whatever those green commies are yapping about.

They're probably low T weak ass vegans anyway.
60 million is literally the highest estimate I can find, with most sources saying 30 to 60 million, which is a pretty massive discrepancy. So somewhere between one or two thirds the number of cows. On top of that, the bison ate a more "natural" diet, and have more efficient metabolism in the first place and therefore produce less methane. The real issue though is that modern agriculture incidentally destroys the methantropic bacteria in the soil, meaning far more goes into the atmosphere than would have previously for the same level of production.
 
Bacle, have you ever considered that the Republican Parties environmental policy might just be superior to the Democrats? Its not a case of Communist Crazyness or nothing. The Right has had fairly coherent enviromental policies for going on, like, 50 years, which Trump operated mostly within.

Let me quote at you the 2016 portion of the GOP party platform summarizing the Republican stance on the Enviroment:

Environmental Progress

Conservation is inherent in conservatism. As the pioneer of environmentalism a century ago, the Republican Party reaffirms the moral obligation to be good stewards of the God-given natural beauty and resources of our country. We believe that people are the most valuable resources and that human health and safety are the proper measurements of a policy’s success. We assert that private ownership has been the best guarantee of conscientious stewardship, while some of the worst instances of degradation have occurred under government control. Poverty, not wealth, is the gravest threat to the environment, while steady economic growth brings the technological advances which make environmental progress possible.

The environment is too important to be left to radical environmentalists. They are using yesterday’s tools to control a future they do not comprehend. The environmental establishment has become a self-serving elite, stuck in the mindset of the 1970s, subordinating the public’s consensus to the goals of the Democratic Party. Their approach is based on shoddy science, scare tactics, and centralized command-and-control regulation. Over the last eight years, the Administration has triggered an avalanche of regulation that wreaks havoc across our economy and yields minimal environmental benefits.

The central fact of any sensible environmental policy is that, year by year, the environment is improving. Our air and waterways are much healthier than they were a few decades ago. As a nation, we have drastically reduced pollution, mainstreamed recycling, educated the public, and avoided ecological degradation. Even if no additional controls are added, air pollution will continue to decline for the next several decades due to technological turnover of aging equipment. These successes become a challenge for Democratic Party environmental extremists, who must reach farther and demand more to sustain the illusion of an environmental crisis. That is why they routinely ignore costs, exaggerate benefits, and advocate the breaching of constitutional boundaries by federal agencies to impose environmental regulation. At the same time, the environmental establishment looks the other way when environmental degradation is caused by the EPA and other federal agencies as was the case during the Animas River spill.

Our agenda is high on job creation, expanding opportunity and providing a better chance at life for everyone willing to work for it. Our modern approach to environmentalism is directed to that end, and it starts with dramatic change in official Washington. We propose to shift responsibility for environmental regulation from the federal bureaucracy to the states and to transform the EPA into an independent bipartisan commission, similar to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, with structural safeguards against politicized science. We will strictly limit congressional delegation of rule-making authority, and require that citizens be compensated for regulatory takings.

We will put an end to the legal practice known as “sue and settle,” in which environmental groups sue federal agencies whose officials are complicit in the litigation so that, with the taxpayers excluded, both parties can reach agreement behind closed doors. That deceit betrays the public’s trust; it will no longer be tolerated. We will also reform the Equal Access to Justice Act to cap and disclose payments made to environmental activists and return the Act to its original intent.

We will enforce the original intent of the Clean Water Act, not it’s distortion by EPA regulations. We will likewise forbid the EPA to regulate carbon dioxide, something never envisioned when Congress passed the Clean Air Act. We will restore to Congress the authority to set the National Ambient Air Quality Standards and modernize the permitting process under the National Environmental Policy Act so it can no longer invite frivolous lawsuits, thwart sorely needed projects, kill jobs, and strangle growth.

The federal government owns or controls over 640 million acres of land in the United States, most of which is in the West. These are public lands, and the public should have access to them for appropriate activities like hunting, fishing, and recreational shooting. Federal ownership or management of land also places an economic burden on counties and local communities in terms of lost revenue to pay for things such as schools, police, and emergency services. It is absurd to think that all that acreage must remain under the absentee ownership or management of official Washington. Congress shall immediately pass universal legislation providing for a timely and orderly mechanism requiring the federal government to convey certain federally controlled public lands to states. We call upon all national and state leaders and representatives to exert their utmost power and influence to urge the transfer of those lands, identified in the review process, to all willing states for the benefit of the states and the nation as a whole. The residents of state and local communities know best how to protect the land where they work and live. They practice boots-on-the-ground conservation in their states every day. We support amending the Antiquities Act of 1906 to establish Congress’ right to approve the designation of national monuments and to further require the approval of the state where a national monument is designated or a national park is proposed.

There is certainly a need to protect certain species threatened worldwide with extinction. However, the Endangered Species Act (ESA) should not include species such as gray wolves and other species if these species exist elsewhere in healthy numbers in another state or country. To upset the economic viability of an area with an unneeded designation costs jobs and hurts local communities. We must ensure that this protection is done effectively, reasonably, and without unnecessarily impeding the development of lands and natural resources. The ESA should ensure that the listing of endangered species and the designation of critical habitats are based upon sound science and balance the protection of endangered species with the costs of compliance and the rights of property owners. Instead, over the last few decades, the ESA has stunted economic development, halted the construction of projects, burdened landowners, and has been used to pursue policy goals inconsistent with the ESA — all with little to no success in the actual recovery of species. For example, we oppose the listing of the lesser prairie chicken and the potential listing of the sage grouse. Neither species has been shown to be in actual danger and the listings threaten to devastate farmers, ranchers, and oil and gas production. While species threatened with extinction must be protected under the ESA, any such protection must be done in a reasonable and transparent manner with stakeholder input and in consideration of the impact on the development of lands and natural resources.

Information concerning a changing climate, especially projections into the long-range future, must be based on dispassionate analysis of hard data. We will enforce that standard throughout the executive branch, among civil servants and presidential appointees alike. The United Nations’ Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is a political mechanism, not an unbiased scientific institution. Its unreliability is reflected in its intolerance toward scientists and others who dissent from its orthodoxy. We will evaluate its recommendations accordingly. We reject the agendas of both the Kyoto Protocol and the Paris Agreement, which represent only the personal commitments of their signatories; no such agreement can be binding upon the United States until it is submitted to and ratified by the Senate.

We demand an immediate halt to U.S. funding for the U.N.’s Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) in accordance with the 1994 Foreign Relations Authorization Act. That law prohibits Washington from giving any money to “any affiliated organization of the United Nations” which grants Palestinians membership as a state. There is no ambiguity in that language. It would be illegal for the President to follow through on his intention to provide millions in funding for the UNFCCC and hundreds of millions for its Green Climate Fund. We firmly believe environmental problems are best solved by giving incentives for human ingenuity and the development of new technologies, not through top-down, command-and-control regulations that stifle economic growth and cost thousands of jobs.

What specifically do you feel is wrong with the existing Republican Doctrine and philosophy on the environment as laid out above?

Edit: the most important is the first four paragraphs, that lay out the principles being followed. The rest is laying out specifics of how they intended to further those principles in 2016.
 
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Actually no the Republicans have been pretty bad on the environment and while Trump did do alot of good. He did do things that were not correct like pulling out of the Paris accords.
 
The Paris accords have nothing to do with the environment; none of it is actually binding, so it's just a publicity stunt to make it look like something is being done.
That means that you have an argument that the accords should not have been signed in the first place but if they are already signed pulling out just because you dislike what the previous administration did means your word is shit. What if we had an agreement with Iran for them to not pursue nukes, and they kept to it for 4 or 8 or 10 years but then when the next election comes the new president of Iran says that he is pulling and going to make sure Iran has nukes for its self defense like other nations like India and Pakistan and the deal with the previous president was bad and that the The Americans need to make a new deal. We would not be happy and that’s an understatement. If at the next election there is another new Iranian president and he wants to enter into the deal from the past. Would we trust it? Where every new election the country changes its opinion? This is a weak point of democracy but politicians are suppose to be smart enough to mitigate it don’t make bad deals that your successor will revoke and don’t revoke past deals unless it’s really bad. Now America can get away with it a bit because it’s the world power but that is the equivalent of doing a Darth Vader “I am altering the deal, pray I do not alter it further.” Now America can do this it will just be very very unpopular and if it does it too much it can lead towards people allying against you and deciding to ignore your sanctions.
 
That means that you have an argument that the accords should not have been signed in the first place but if they are already signed pulling out just because you dislike what the previous administration did means your word is shit. What if we had an agreement with Iran for them to not pursue nukes, and they kept to it for 4 or 8 or 10 years but then when the next election comes the new president of Iran says that he is pulling and going to make sure Iran has nukes for its self defense like other nations like India and Pakistan and the deal with the previous president was bad and that the The Americans need to make a new deal. We would not be happy and that’s an understatement. If at the next election there is another new Iranian president and he wants to enter into the deal from the past. Would we trust it? Where every new election the country changes its opinion? This is a weak point of democracy but politicians are suppose to be smart enough to mitigate it don’t make bad deals that your successor will revoke and don’t revoke past deals unless it’s really bad. Now America can get away with it a bit because it’s the world power but that is the equivalent of doing a Darth Vader “I am altering the deal, pray I do not alter it further.” Now America can do this it will just be very very unpopular and if it does it too much it can lead towards people allying against you and deciding to ignore your sanctions.
China doesn't even pretend to follow the Paris Agreement, and neither does a ton of other countries. What you're essentially arguing is that it's more important to keep up the appearance that something is being done, than admitting that nothing is.
 
China doesn't even pretend to follow the Paris Agreement, and neither does a ton of other countries. What you're essentially arguing is that it's more important to keep up the appearance that something is being done, than admitting that nothing is.
Actually they do pretend, or at least have the media pretend they do. There are a few reasons for these. People were complaining about China and India, and while those two do hate each other, one thing they both agree on is that they need to catch up with the west to avoid being colonized again. So think of these environmental bills similar to the arms control treaties the great powers had on ships in the early 20th century there was some fudging but it prevented people going all the way. Oh and yes keeping up appearances is very important in diplomacy. I would assume that's obvious.
 
Bacle, have you ever considered that the Republican Parties environmental policy might just be superior to the Democrats? Its not a case of Communist Crazyness or nothing. The Right has had fairly coherent enviromental policies for going on, like, 50 years, which Trump operated mostly within.

Let me quote at you the 2016 portion of the GOP party platform summarizing the Republican stance on the Enviroment:



What specifically do you feel is wrong with the existing Republican Doctrine and philosophy on the environment as laid out above?

Edit: the most important is the first four paragraphs, that lay out the principles being followed. The rest is laying out specifics of how they intended to further those principles in 2016.
Well, lets see:

1) It is mostly complaining about current (or current at the time) environmental policies and saying how bad they are.

2) It acts like air pollution and clean water are the biggest environmental issues of import to the US, when those are places we already have it sorted and are not actually the problems that environmentalist talk about these days. Nothing in it about microplastics, ocean acidification, coastal erosion, forest overgrowth, or sea level rise, just to name a few.

3) Going after the Endangered Species Act; this is just simply a no-go in today's society. That bullshit about 'if there are existing populations in other states/countries, the restriction aren't needed in other areas an endangered animal inhabits' is...not good. Animals don't care about state borders, and some animals do this thing called 'migration' across thousands of miles. It also completely ignores the genetic diversity factor in endangered species, where there are real dangers of genetic bottlenecks and severe inbreeding if only some of the population is protected enough to breed regularly.

4) Naively thinks moving all EPA/ESA stuff to state-level environmental regs would actually going to make things 'better'. All that does is make it easier for states to get away with polluting their neighbors and acting like they don't have to care about issues if it isn't in their borders.

5) Trying to 'return lands to the states' by removing tracts from being under Federal authority bit, and claiming land being under Fed jurisdiction is taking revenue away from the locals, which is a farce. Fed land is barely maintained a lot of the time, even the Nat'l Parks have had funding/upkeep issues, and 'returning it to the state' just shifts the maintenance burden to the state level, and a lot of states don't have the cash laying around to shoulder that burden without cutting other places/items.
 
3) Going after the Endangered Species Act; this is just simply a no-go in today's society. That bullshit about 'if there are existing populations in other states/countries, the restriction aren't needed in other areas an endangered animal inhabits' is...not good. Animals don't care about state borders, and some animals do this thing called 'migration' across thousands of miles. It also completely ignores the genetic diversity factor in endangered species, where there are real dangers of genetic bottlenecks and severe inbreeding if only some of the population is protected enough to breed regularly.

The default position of the modern GOP should be "fuck what modern society is considers tolerable, modern society is disease! We're going to drag American culture kicking and screaming back about nine decades."

5) Trying to 'return lands to the states' by removing tracts from being under Federal authority bit, and claiming land being under Fed jurisdiction is taking revenue away from the locals, which is a farce. Fed land is barely maintained a lot of the time, even the Nat'l Parks have had funding/upkeep issues, and 'returning it to the state' just shifts the maintenance burden to the state level, and a lot of states don't have the cash laying around to shoulder that burden without cutting other places/items.

And your ignorance shows yet again.

The Feds do nothing with those lands, half the time they even violate the EPA's own rules by allowing them to be infested by invasive species, especially invasive plants (The Whole reason behind one of the Bundy stand off's was over the EPA trying to destroy the life of a grandpa for burning Asian vines that were destroying native trees). States seizing those lands, means they could be either turned into partially privately funded local state parks and nature preserves, hunting ranches or wildlife research centers.

Or more importantly, farms.
 
Actually no the Republicans have been pretty bad on the environment and while Trump did do alot of good. He did do things that were not correct like pulling out of the Paris accords.
The Paris accords are just as silly and foolish as the Kyoto Protocols.

China's a part of the Kyoto Protocol while my homeland of Canada withdrew 10 years ago thanks to good old Stephen Harper.

Which country remains more polluted right now, I ask?
 
The default position of the modern GOP should be "fuck what modern society is considers tolerable, modern society is disease! We're going to drag American culture kicking and screaming back about nine decades."
Sure, as long as you keep female bathing suits the way they are now.

Otherwise, it'd be just as the Handmaiden's Tale predicted.

Ultra-Christian nightmare so terrible I'd rather have Hell on Earth.
 
2) It acts like air pollution and clean water are the biggest environmental issues of import to the US, when those are places we already have it sorted and are not actually the problems that environmentalist talk about these days. Nothing in it about microplastics, ocean acidification, coastal erosion, forest overgrowth, or sea level rise, just to name a few.
What does it mean to be "biggest environmental issues of import"?
For one they are issues whose relevance to US population and negative effect on it can be measured and weighted against costs of action against it. It is a practical, and in matter of at least many pollutants, local issue - aka successfully solving the problem in USA will at least dramatically reduce the exposure to the given pollutant in USA.
Most of the problems you have mentioned are the opposite of that, global problems, no matter what law is enforced on US territory, there will be a miniscule at best effect on the scale of the problem as experienced by US populations (if its a meaningful problem to them at all), instead these are problems most beloved by virtue signalling international environmentalists that cannot be solved by any US action, they just make great material for handwaving in distress, complaining, and trying to beg/bribe third world countries to not do things. Obviously that's not stuff Republicans get their fun doing, so they don't.
Forest overgrowth is an exception to that, which is why its one that did get Republican interest, of course for a very pragmatic reason that fire safety is, but guess who has a problem with that - yeah, not a hard one, the usual suspects of course.
 
Lets start at the basic principles being laid out: human health, safety, and wealth is the primary concern of environmental policy.

Is this a good principle? Why or why not?
I'd say it's human health, safety, then pleasure(by this I mean aesthetics so that future generations can enjoy nature by walking in meadows and parks, and able to see animals in their natural habitat and not worry about them being extinct so future generations can't enjoy them), then wealth. We should stop putting wealth on such a high pedestal since it's a corrupting influence that is mostly used to serve the interests of the elites.
 
I'd say it's human health, safety, then pleasure(by this I mean aesthetics so that future generations can enjoy nature by walking in meadows and parks, and able to see animals in their natural habitat and not worry about them being extinct so future generations can't enjoy them), then wealth. We should stop putting wealth on such a high pedestal since it's a corrupting influence that is mostly used to serve the interests of the elites.


I'll stop putting wealth on a pedestal when people start focusing on increasing the standard of living. I know the church gets the tingles when they "Help the less fortante." but some of us don't want to be living off crumbs just so the clerics can feel rightous. we want our own chance at the spot at the table
 

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