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Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
Right, so in WWI, Germany played the role of an imperial power butting heads with other imperial powers, hoping to get a bigger piece of the pie and reaping only sorrow.

In WWII, it was more of a fanatical revanchism, spurred by socioeconomic catastrophe and kept afloat by death cult propaganda and a totalitarian/police state.

Now, Germany appears to have been convinced that the path to power in the 21st century is to play the peaceful political/economic game. Sign up with the EU, try to be the biggest fish in the Euro-pond, and try to make the pond bigger (grow the EU). As long as the US Navy keeps oceanic trade open, and as long as NATO is a reliable safeguard for its European members, it seems like a plan worth sticking to.

If anything, I'd think that the world wars are examples of Germany being TOO committed to a path it thought would lead to greatness; I'm not sure why you expect it to bail on the current scheme.
Yep! In WW1, Imperial Germany was just as good/bad as the other imperial powers wanting more territory, power, influence, resources, et cetera. They lost.

The fallout from that loss, however, is what caused the perfect storm for the exact things you said -- one which the average German supported, despite what revisionists like to declare, until things started going pear-shaped for Germany mid--late War.

Germany is taking a diplomatic route this time, and it's sort-of working -- "everyone wins" except when they don't, and that's when the ugly side of the EU comes out.

Like during the Pandemic? Italy asked for help. Germany and France basically said "sucks to be you, sucker!".
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Poland sanctioned worse than Russia? What on earth are you talking about?
Do you think that Germany cannot succeed without putting its boot on Poland's neck,

Translating from ATP to clearer language.
Russia is a traditional ally of Germany, not a rival. Russia realistically poses no threat to Germany, only annoying obstructionists. It is physically too far away to realistically affect Germany's sense of danger.

Poland is a different matter, the very beginning of our countries existence was war after war. The Germans saw us as an obstacle to their own development, an obstacle that must be eliminated. To build themselves an economic base to realize their superpower ambitions.
We, on the other hand, successfully violated these ambitions for a long time. As a matter of fact, as long as Poland was united in its "Piast" (i.e. current borders), German influence ended at the Oder River without being able to cross.

It wasn't until the division split and two foolish decisions - the sale of the Lubusz land (popularly known as the New March) and inviting the Teutonic Knights - that Germany went so far east. (Although it was only a string of bad coincidences that hardened this state, instead of being temporary.)

Then when the HRE disintegrated into a state of organized anarchy under the Hasburgs who saw us as a partner and the Teutonic Knights became polite Prussians, there was peace and tranquility between us for a long time.

Then come the partitions, a lost age for Poland, which was a golden age for Germany, and comes the 20th century and so on and so forth. Nevertheless, the same scenario repeats itself every time, Germany if it wants to be a superpower and the strongest one. They must, unfortunately for Poland, stifle it. It is the geography itself that causes Germany to try to subjugate Poland time and time again and Poland tries to avoid this fate.

Hence the simple ATP-esque fact that Germany would be more sanctioned Poland than Russia. Because it is in their interest to weaken Poland as much as possible and not Russia! As long as America keeps them in check, Germany can dream and must go down a path that is not to their liking.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Poland sanctioned worse than Russia? What on earth are you talking about?

And perhaps you can clarify something else for me. Do you think that Germany cannot succeed without putting its boot on Poland's neck, or do you think that Germans are just obsessed with hurting Poles even when there is no reason to?
1.EU keep our money under pretext,that we have bad juridical system.When we try just copy germans.

2.A - of course no,germans could succed without enslaving us.

2.B - sadly,as long as germans are united and ruled from Berlin with prussian thinking elites,they belive,that God in which no longer belive gave them right to rule over us.
Which is kinda funny - we do not care what german do on their turf,as long as it not concern us.
When every german belive,that they must control Poland.Nation run by psychos.
 

strunkenwhite

Well-known member
Translating from ATP to clearer language.
A good attempt, but given the most recent post I'm not sure that's what was actually meant. In any case, that's a sensible view of history. It's just that...
2.A - of course no,germans could succed without enslaving us.
...if Germany's ambitions are no longer following the old imperialist paradigm, then it follows that subjugating its neighbors may no longer be necessary.

If the idea being put forward is that Germany would instantly revert to classical imperialism the moment US influence left the world (or Euro) stage, well, I'm not sure about that but I haven't really thought too hard about it because I don't expect the hypothetical to be likely to come to pass any time soon.
 

ATP

Well-known member
A good attempt, but given the most recent post I'm not sure that's what was actually meant. In any case, that's a sensible view of history. It's just that...

...if Germany's ambitions are no longer following the old imperialist paradigm, then it follows that subjugating its neighbors may no longer be necessary.

If the idea being put forward is that Germany would instantly revert to classical imperialism the moment US influence left the world (or Euro) stage, well, I'm not sure about that but I haven't really thought too hard about it because I don't expect the hypothetical to be likely to come to pass any time soon.
1.Well,he almost nailed it.But,geography is not all - we could imagine normal german state which do not try conqer Europe.
Sadly,current one is not normal - and they try to turn EU into Fourth Reich with Poland as its colony.
It would fail,of course - but we still could have war.

2.United germany ruled by Berlin elites would ALWAYS try to create Empire and enslave/kill us - but,they could be normal people,too.

Free german states would be normal and not try to conqer Europe.
Unite german state could be normal,too - as long,as they purge all prussian-like dudes,and do not have capitol in Berlin.Munich is so nice place,right?
 

ATP

Well-known member
I think we have reached the point of "agree to disagree". Thank you for your thoughts.
You are welcome.
And ,to be precise - not all Berlins would be bad,only those with prussian tradition coping Frederick the thief.
Some normal protestant ruler there would not try to take over Europe,too.
 

Buba

A total creep
The USA chose a name for its new "light tank" - anybody know anything about this programme?
The US Army has been developing a repalcement for the M551 since 1970 ...
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
It is not a light tank.
It is the mobile protected firepower and is is named the M10 Booker
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
No, it's mobile protected firepower
...Which means...? Is it a mobile gun with light armour? A tankette-like vehicle? A support vehicle? An armoured IFV or AFV of some type...?

I've never heard of this vehicle before, so I'm genuinely curious.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
...Which means...? Is it a mobile gun with light armour? A tankette-like vehicle? A support vehicle? An armoured IFV or AFV of some type...?

I've never heard of this vehicle before, so I'm genuinely curious.
Basically a tracked replacement for the fucked up Stryker MGS program.
Though technically someone could use it as a light tank.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Seems like it's probably the equivalent of a turreted tank destroyer, like the old Wolverines and Hellcats.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
It is not a light tank.
It is an MPF.
Just happens to fit the characteristics if a light tank
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
It is not a light tank.
It is an MPF.
Just happens to fit the characteristics if a light tank
Doctrinally US Army wants to do a fire support vehicle kind of thing with it, not unlike all these cold war era "put cannon on APC\IFV chassis" programs, but technically the vehicle itself is not exactly distinguishable from a light tank and if you handed it over to another country they would probably use it as a light tank, that's how i understand it.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Doctrinally US Army wants to do a fire support vehicle kind of thing with it, not unlike all these cold war era "put cannon on APC\IFV chassis" programs, but technically the vehicle itself is not exactly distinguishable from a light tank and if you handed it over to another country they would probably use it as a light tank, that's how i understand it.
It is a fire support vehicle for direct fire.
It is not a tank doctrinally
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
I dunno. MPF mean nothing to me. Too broad. Looks like an Designated Armored Mobility Gun to me.

DAMGun.

No that won't work. Switch it around.

Gundam.

Yeah looks like a Gundam. Doctrinally as well.
 

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