I figured as much; not sure how ERA are mounted normally, but if figured it would require something like zip-ties or a bunch of spot welds to get it properly secured to the Cope Cage.
Russian Invasion of Ukraine 2022
- Thread starter killerofa23
- Start date
Chiron
Well-known member
The only test we know of was an invalid test against a T-64A turret that had been used in prior tests.
And given the Separatists in Donbas didn't record any appreciable losses to Javelins, more evidence is needed from you as the claims come from you.
Here we see a Javelin hit a BMP-3 which is visibly still reversing throughout, the ERA has clearly activated and the fire is dying out as remaining fuel is burnt up along with whatever kit was stored on that side. Now that BMP-3 is definitely mission-killed as the crew and dismounts are going to be knocked silly and minor repairs needed. So still a success in taking one less weapon out of the fight. Just not a permanent success as it will be back.
Had the ERA not worked, the turret would have popped off within seconds as the location it hit would have caused the jet to hit the ammo stowage.
Finally most footage we have of UkA KORDs in action show them using RPGs and Soviet Era ATGMs to take out Russian Armor. Which makes sense as they can loot ammo from the Russians if they are successful and not wiped out.
It wouldn't be as good as standard ERA mounting
We don't know if that was a Jave or not.
And also we didn't really start to ship Javelins until recently, so of course the seps wouldn't have seen them...
And I need you to show proof they fail against cope cages
When there are plenty of pictures showing they go right through.
Still waiting...
That was a drone strike... And the tank was killed...
Pruning Threads MK9
Cuts in to cut out more extraneous conversations.
Decided to leave in the extended Javelin/Cope Cage conversation though. I'm not sure its a significant topic on its own but if the discussion continues then I'll probably prune it into its own thread later. A lot of the topics that drifted, or actually initiated, already had threads made on those very specific topics. So instead of posting those things here, post them in those threads. As a reminder... here are some of the splinter threads that literally discuss the things people are bringing up in here and clogging up the thread that is supposed to be about the Russian Invasion of Ukraine.
This is for @Chiron
Here's one for the alternatives to Russian energy.
And yes... we have a Biolabs in Ukraine thread already @SchrodingersWehraboo
If this Invasion de-evolves into Biological/Germ Warfare, I'll be more then happy to mea culpa and merge the threads though.
Decided to leave in the extended Javelin/Cope Cage conversation though. I'm not sure its a significant topic on its own but if the discussion continues then I'll probably prune it into its own thread later. A lot of the topics that drifted, or actually initiated, already had threads made on those very specific topics. So instead of posting those things here, post them in those threads. As a reminder... here are some of the splinter threads that literally discuss the things people are bringing up in here and clogging up the thread that is supposed to be about the Russian Invasion of Ukraine.
This is for @Chiron
Here's one for the alternatives to Russian energy.
And yes... we have a Biolabs in Ukraine thread already @SchrodingersWehraboo
If this Invasion de-evolves into Biological/Germ Warfare, I'll be more then happy to mea culpa and merge the threads though.
Yeah I saw a news clip on YouTube not too long ago showing a bit of the mini-diaspora in regards to Finland.
Apparently some are just going there so they can take flights to other places due to the airspace bans.
Floridaman
Well-known member
All I can say is.... no jets for you.
Floridaman
Well-known member
And Poland doesn’t want to do it directly because they don’t want to be on the hook for it, in other words it probably isn’t happening.
Well yes, Poland gave the US what it said it wanted and the US suddenly realized that turning dreams into reality was really hard and they didn't want to do it anymore.
1) Poland wasn't going to give up a decent part of its air force without compensation, and the US wasn't willing to provide that compensation.
2) The jets couldn't just be straight transferred anyways, first you have to rip out and replace any NATO restricted tech. Which includes practically the entire communications system, and probably the sensors depending on how much/if Poland upgraded the jets. This is a non trivial effort.
3) Delivering fighters isn't as simple as just flying them to a Ukrainian air base. If they fly in under a NATO flag them they are NATO forces directly taking part in the war (at least in the Russian view) and with all the attendant consequences. If they fly in under a Ukrainian flag then they are Ukrainian fighters being launched from a NATO military base with all of those attendant consequences. Poland has also been very clear that they aren't going to allow Ukrainian military assets to transit their territory.
So Poland says that they will transfer the planes to the US, which makes the US responsible for stripping them of the NATO tech and responsible for figuring out how to deliver the planes and the one responsible for the consequences.
My guess is we might see a 'Eagle Squadron' of foreign volunteer pilots and ground crew decide to take the planes to Ukraine as 'private citizens' and either stay as part of the pro-Kiev foreign forces, or quickly skeedattle back across the Polish/Ukraine border.
No, it's really not.
What has to happen is:
1) Poland is willing to lose the planes, and is requiring that the US provide replacements. Which means the US needs to pony up 20+ air frames. This is a non trivial exercise for the US.
2) The planes are stripped of NATO gear. It would actually require laws and/or treaties to be changed to allow the transfer of some of the equipment to a non-NATO member, which means stripping it out and replacing it before the planes are turned over to Ukraine. This takes time, assuming that appropriate parts could be acquired in short order.
3) Get the planes into a state where they can be moved via cargo ship, truck, or rail into Ukraine. Because they aren't going to be flown in. Unless Poland or Romania are willing to play an active and direct role in that transfer, transporting them via ship is the only option. That means flying them, probably, to Turkey and then loading them up on a cargo vessel to transit the Black Sea to Odessa. This is a transfer that will both take a decent amount of time and carry its own substantial risks.
4) Ukraine gets the jets into a combat ready state and starts using them.
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The idea of transferring fighters to Ukraine was stupid from day one and never should have been brought up. It was never a realistically viable undertaking in a useful time frame.
Poland is of the "fuck no" position on that topic. Russia will treat any direct flight of those planes from Polish to Ukrainian territory as Poland actively joining the war in Ukraine.
Well, if they flew said planes to say...Germany for the stripping of NATO gear, then flew to Greece, then to Ukraine, Poland wouldn't have to worry about them crossing their airspace on the way to Ukraine.
Not sure Russia would care to see the difference, but Greece might be willing to take the risk; they have their own beef with Russia as it is.
Though I agree that the plan transfer idea sounded like a...very risky proposition when I first heard it. If Putin really is unhinged, actual planes and possibly NATO pilots being involved in getting them to Ukraine seems like the sort of thing that might cause Russia to decide NATO has openly come onto the field of battle in Ukraine, and all the nasty escalation that could come from that.
They are asking for F16s. You know, the thing wr have thousands of sitting in the boneyard.
So it wouldn't be hard.
Stripping is gonna be easy.
The transportation from NATO to Ukraone would be the biggest hurdle
Chiron
Well-known member
Odessa is under blockade. Any civilian ship heading to it will be stopped and searched. No merchant captain is going to risk a prize court, because unless Russian sailors slap them around for no good reason, they have no defense for carrying war gear.
That and its too late. Russia has been systematically destroying aircraft hangers and maintenance facilities plus the fuel reserves for the UkAF. By the time the jets are disassembled and trucked in, UkAF has no way to put them back together as the main facility that can was destroyed along with several Azerbaijani Jets undergoing a mid life servicing, but fuck them for now.
They want fully modernized and top of the line F-16s. Not the ones that have been flown basically to destruction, which is a lot of the US inventory.
They would probably have to come from National Guard stocks, and that involves the state government as well and another layer of politics and bureaucracy.
And no, stripping them isn't easy. At a minimum you have to pull the entire communications system and replace it. And that assumes that you have an acceptable replacement on hand.
Depending on how upgraded the jets have been, you may well need to pull and replace a large chunk of the sensor systems as well. And, again, replace it.
Depending on what was done to the weapons systems, you might also have to replace those as well. I'm not sure how the upgrades went, but if Poland made them compatible with NATO missile systems they may well have lost compatibility with Soviet/Russian missiles.