Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

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So let's go back to jacen in Betrayal.

He's Ben's master and he's apparently done lightsaber instruction at the academy.

At the same time, he is very much distant from his family, and can not even see Tenel Ka regularly.

He runs into a woman named Brysha Syo-but not before going through many stressful scenarios, which he ends up taking utilitarian solutions too.

And she leads them to her asteroid.

The party are separated.

Lumiya, now brings up the big shocker.

Vergere was a Sith, she secretly was considered for apprenticeship to palpatine but ran away once she got a handle on his true character.

They apparently were in contact(Vergere and Lumiya) during the Vong war(there is a period in the NJO were Vergere goes missing for some months).

Jacen sees visions of the galaxy at war, his uncle's death, and while he is definitely aware of the dictum, "always in motion the future is", the futures he sees-are dependent on certain action or inaction, so he must choose.

Lumiya tells the story of Darth Vectivus-the Sith who found his own master, and died surrounded by family and friends.

It is crucial, absolutely crucial to note-Jacen isn't led into this by a promise to save Tenel Ka, but in part to save Luke(who is implied to have fallen to the dark side), as well as ensure galactic peace.

Jacen sees visions of other outcomes-Lumiya is arrested or she dies-and the same terrible outcome emerges. galactic war, a dead or dark luke.

So he chooses, willingly, consciously, calmly to step into the dark. Devastating Nelani Dinn.

Who is the foil-the good Jedi girl. Who herself has a conversation with supposed shade of Vectivus. Who tries much to convince her the same thing.

At the end of the novel, Jacen runs Nelani down and kills her. Running her through. He sees her future, she'll help people, have a family, and he looks her in the eye.

It clearly hurts him to do this. And Lumiya promises to give her a funeral. Ben's mind is wiped.

Out of all of the LOTF books-Betrayal sets up an intriguing premise and promises an exciting drama.
 
ShadowArxxy said:
I have no idea how you come to this bizarre conclusion, considering that Jacen embraced genocide and mass murder "for the greater good" even before he became a Sith. He basically repeated Anakin's failures tenfold, without any of Anakin's redeeming values.
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Let's see.

-Jacen has an intense love of life. Like, he loves living things. Creatures, great and small.
-Jacen is extremely compassionate. He cares for the Shamed Ones, he cares for the refugees. Jacen is a "bleeding heart", and the Vong consider him the literal avatar of their goddess of the shamed-the dalits of Vong society. Who watches over them with a thousand eyes. Think about that-Jaina is the trickster and Ganner the giant, Jacen is the God of the suffering and downtrodden. The protector and advocate for the weak.
-Jacen has an intense desire to know more. Not just academic knowledge, but a profound desire to understand the force, the Jedi, and his role in the cosmos.
-Jacen sacrifices himself. He chooses the dark side for the sake of others. Not so Padme can keep on living. He doesn't fight Jaina for Allana to escape. Every death he causes, it is for someone else. For a child he doesn't know. He makes enemies of his family, so a galaxy that doesn't know him might know peace. Lumiya teaches him the importance of sacrifice.
-Vergere. Vergere teaches him to stop engaging in crippling self recrimination and act. Not just act-Choose and act. He is so empathetic that he goes through a pacifist phase. Vergere says, "Understand who you are and then act on it!".
-Jacen is more than a Jedi.

Far more.

He is a friend.

He is the one who talks to the World Brain. And gets it to sabotage Yuuzhan'tar. A creature alien and strange. And he befriends it.

Jacen is what a Jedi ought to aspire to.

He makes mistakes. He kills Tebut, he fails with Ben. But he acknowledges his failures. He acknowledges he has become "like Palpatine and Exar Kun"

That is a level of self awareness most Jedi don't have.

He resolves to be better. Important too, to remember the Galactic Alliance military is about three fourths behind him.

The GAG is loyal(barring one officer) to him. Like his grandfather, "he would not ask them to do anything he would not do himself".

He is probably the most selfless Sith there ever was, and the best Jedi. Barring extraordinary cases like Fay and An'ya Kuro.

(Who coincidentally have no identity except their Jedi-ness)

Not to mention, he is the only Jedi in history to have achieved this state.



He achieved a level of power that simply can not be quantified, and peace greater than mortal understanding.

In doing so, he defeated(through mere defense not attack) the true Supreme Overlord.
 
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Lord Invictus said:
Let's see.

-Jacen has an intense love of life. Like, he loves living things. Creatures, great and small.
-Jacen is extremely compassionate. He cares for the Shamed Ones, he cares for the refugees. Jacen is a "bleeding heart", and the Vong consider him the literal avatar of their goddess of the shamed-the dalits of Vong society. Who watches over them with a thousand eyes. Think about that-Jaina is the trickster and Ganner the giant, Jacen is the God of the suffering and downtrodden. The protector and advocate for the weak.
-Jacen has an intense desire to know more. Not just academic knowledge, but a profound desire to understand the force, the Jedi, and his role in the cosmos.
-Jacen sacrifices himself. He chooses the dark side for the sake of others. Not so Padme can keep on living. He doesn't fight Jaina for Allana to escape. Every death he causes, it is for someone else. For a child he doesn't know. He makes enemies of his family, so a galaxy that doesn't know him might know peace. Lumiya teaches him the importance of sacrifice.
-Vergere. Vergere teaches him to stop engaging in crippling self recrimination and act. Not just act-Choose and act. He is so empathetic that he goes through a pacifist phase. Vergere says, "Understand who you are and then act on it!".
-Jacen is more than a Jedi.

Far more.

He is a friend.

He is the one who talks to the World Brain. And gets it to sabotage Yuuzhan'tar. A creature alien and strange. And he befriends it.

Jacen is what a Jedi ought to aspire to.

He makes mistakes. He kills Tebut, he fails with Ben. But he acknowledges his failures. He acknowledges he has become "like Palpatine and Exar Kun"

That is a level of self awareness most Jedi don't have.

He resolves to be better. Important too, to remember the Galactic Alliance military is about three fourths behind him.

The GAG is loyal(barring one officer) to him. Like his grandfather, "he would not ask them to do anything he would not do himself".

He is probably the most selfless Sith there ever was, and the best Jedi. Barring extraordinary cases like Fay and An'ya Kuro.

(Who coincidentally have no identity except their Jedi-ness)

Not to mention, he is the only Jedi in history to have achieved this state.



He achieved a level of power that simply can not be quantified, and peace greater than mortal understanding.

In doing so, he defeated(through mere defense not attack) the true Supreme Overlord.
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*sees the Jedi avatar state*

Ah now I remeber, this is the part where I phased out of the EU and didin't pick it up again till the legacy comics, cause this is where it got stupid.
 
Hastur of Carcosa said:
*sees the Jedi avatar state*

Ah now I remeber, this is the part where I phased out of the EU and didin't pick it up again till the legacy comics, cause this is where it got stupid.
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You don't happen to be Troy Denning?

You do realize, that's one of the most profound and mystical scenes in the EU?

The fact you don't appreciate that, says far more about you than the scene.
 
Hastur of Carcosa said:
sounds like it was quite the religious experience for you buddy.
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Jacen became a bodhisattva. It was a deeply religious experience.

To quote someone from TFN-In the Sufi tradition, Jacen would be said to have experience a state(hal) rather than a station(maqam).

Sufism is Islamic mysticism-Jacen experiences a state of oneness. Something that he grasps for a few glorious moments.

Its probably the most religious or mystical scene in SW.
 
Lord Invictus said:
Jacen became a bodhisattva. It was a deeply religious experience.

To quote someone from TFN-In the Sufi tradition, Jacen would be said to have experience a state(hal) rather than a station(maqam).

Sufism is Islamic mysticism-Jacen experiences a state of oneness. Something that he grasps for a few glorious moments.

Its probably the most religious or mystical scene in SW.
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*Woosh* my comment went over your head. That or your deflecting.
 
Lord Invictus said:
You made a snide remark and I replied.

That scene is extremely spiritual and mystical.

That's why it and Ganner's stand are the best in the EU.
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Ok let me spell this out as clear and as blunt as I can. Jacen Solo is a fictional character. He's not real. He's not a historical figure he's not even mythical figure, he's a fictional character that was created in freaking 1993 with many a feats like this not being introduced until the mid to late 2000's.

and yet here you are acting like some kind of self-proclaimed desciple constantly proclaiming his holiness and lashing out at anybody who attacks your god (Or god forbid actually criticize the writing/story) as a heretic. quote.

Lord Invictus said:
The fact you don't appreciate that, says far more about you than the scene.
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I don't like Jacen, sorry call me a pagan or a heathen but I don't he was an obnoxious knock off OPed that was treated like a authors pet. With Rey they at least nipped her in the bud before she had the chance to get that OPed. Jacen's avatar state is also the same time period the EU thought it was a good idea to bring in a Not-Lovecraft diety .

it was the time period where I felt that The EU in generally jumped the shark and stuff like it is why some star wars fans call it glorified fan fiction. I'm not sorry.
 
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Lord Invictus said:
Jacen became a bodhisattva. It was a deeply religious experience.

To quote someone from TFN-In the Sufi tradition, Jacen would be said to have experience a state(hal) rather than a station(maqam).

Sufism is Islamic mysticism-Jacen experiences a state of oneness. Something that he grasps for a few glorious moments.

Its probably the most religious or mystical scene in SW.
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I don't want religious moments in my Sci fi...
Hastur of Carcosa said:
Ok let me spell this out as clear and as blunt as I can. Jacen Solo is a fictional character. He's not real. He's not a historical figure he's not even mythical figure, he's a fictional character that was created in freaking 1993 with many a feats like this not being introduced until the mid to late 2000's.

and yet here you are acting like some kind of self-proclaimed desciple constantly proclaiming his holiness and lashing out at anybody who attacks your god (Or god forbid actually criticize the writing/story) as a heretic. quote.



I don't like Jacen, sorry call me a pagan or a heathen but I don't he was an obnoxious knock off OPed that was treated like a authors pet. With Rey they at least nipped her in the bud before she had the chance to get that OPed. Jacen's avatar state is also the same time period the EU thought it was a good idea to bring in a Not-Lovecraft diety .

it was the time period where I felt that The EU in generally jumped the shark and stuff like it is why some star wars fans call it glorified fan fiction. I'm not sorry.
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Exactly! Rey at least wont be used much as they are focusing before 7 and after 6 in the current stuff.

Also, Invictus wenrt you born in the late 90s?
 
Zachowon said:
I don't want religious moments in my Sci fi...
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When one of the fundamental concepts of the setting is a mystical energy field that connects all life, it's kind of hard to avoid. Especially since it is also inherently about Good and Evil (with capital letters).

-------------------------------

For what it's worth, I think Jacen's arc got muddled terribly. Twice.

First because the role he got in NJO was originally going to his brother Anakin. I consider it a great arc, but yeah-- it did make more sense for Anakin (who had been established as pensive, deeply thoughtful, and more introspective... even as a kid) than it did for Jacen (who was a more outgoing, act-first-think-later kind of 'adventurer' type). Anakin's thing was that he was a very intelligent, introspective Wunderkind. Jacen's thing was that he was all heart. Not stupid, but guided by emotional considerations. His love for animals and nature tied into that. (Whereas Anakin was great with machines and programming: the intellectual aspect.) It would have made more sense for Jacen to be a driven Jedi who calls for action ("Do the right thing!") and for Anakin to be the pensive doubter ("What is the right thing?").

The second time, because -- given the role switch in NJO -- Jacen after that series would be the very last person in the galaxy to do what he did in LotF. Although I'm not even remotely a fan of Denning's writing, the arc Jacen went through in LotF could have been an interesting one. (Far better than whatever Kylo Ren was supposed to be, anyway!) But I don't think it fits Jacen at all. Maybe it could have fit an adult version of pre-NJO Jacen. That would've been fairly interesting. Imagine that: no switching of roles in NJO, Anakin gets that whole spiritual journey, and Jacen... disagrees with his brother's vision for the Jedi. And that then leads that version of Jacen to go for a utilitarian philosophy, in direct opposition to his brother's completely anti-utilitarian philosophy.

The problem is: in the NJO we got, it's Jacen himself who embraces that anti-utilitarian view. That's what Vergere teaches him. Or rather: what she encourages him to teach himself. So he'd never go all utilitarian, ends-justify-the-means radical.

Fun fact is that, if you ask me, the boyish, animal-raising adventurer is a great character. So is the introspective philosopher who goes on a spiritual journey and achieves Enlightenment. And so is the good man who is driven to evil deeds in a morally shady quest to prevent something he firmly believes is even worse.

But these three should not be the same character!
 
Anakin is the action hero in the NJO.

There’s a few year gap between the NJO and YJK IIRC.

As for the three incarnations-I think you can harmonize them(I’ve seen it done in an excellent fanfic)-it’s just requires a lot of imagination.

I personally love Traitor and post Traitor Jacen.

Anakin’s NJO character wouldn’t fit Jacen’s NJO story.

Meaning-that the character’s personalities switched at the start of the series(Jacen is contemplative and Anakin the action man in Vector Prime).

I suppose IU you could say they both grew into it.

On LOTF-I do think you can harmonize Lumiya’s teachings with Vergere’s and there are some fans that retcon or no, consider Vergere a bad egg.
 
Lord Invictus said:
Meaning-that the character’s personalities switched at the start of the series(Jacen is contemplative and Anakin the action man in Vector Prime).
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Yes, they switched it around before they started writing. Result: Vector Prime Anakin is more like Bantam-era Jacen than Bantam-era Anakin, and Vector Prime Jacen is more like Bantam-era Anakin than Bantam-era Jacen. Their characterisations are consistent within the NJO series, but if you read all this stuff in succession, it really stands out.
 
Skallagrim said:
Yes, they switched it around before they started writing. Result: Vector Prime Anakin is more like Bantam-era Jacen than Bantam-era Anakin, and Vector Prime Jacen is more like Bantam-era Anakin than Bantam-era Jacen. Their characterisations are consistent within the NJO series, but if you read all this stuff in succession, it really stands out.
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I read the YJK a long time ago. So my memory escapes me.

So-if Jacen is the heart, and anakin the head, does that make Jaina the soul? Or Jaina the body?
 
Lord Invictus said:
I read the YJK a long time ago. So my memory escapes me.

So-if Jacen is the heart, and anakin the head, does that make Jaina the soul? Or Jaina the body?
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Jaina's personality proved pretty hard to pin down (and I think they repeatedly fumbled it, too). In YJK, I got the impression that she was more "the leader" of their little gang than Jacen was. Whatever adventures they got into, it was usually Jaina going "well, what are we waiting for?" (Literally a catch-phrase of hers.)

But that's her role. Her personality was less defined. What I've noticed is that she seemed to worry more than Jacen, pre-NJO. Not in the "intellectual contemplation" way, but in the "worrying about people" way. I always sort of read those traits as being tied together: Jaina takes responsibility for the team, and feels responsible.

A lot of that is interpretation, particularly since we often don't get all three Solo kids' perspective on a situation.

For example: Tenel Ka loses her arm. We get Jacen's perspective, which is all about how he can make this right between them (emotionally). And we get Anakin's take, which is thoughtful in every sense. He has considered what Tenel Ka herself might want or need, and he has thought of a practical way to get her that: he's looked into one-handed hair braiding techniques, and shares those with her. We don't get Jaina's view on it. She is initially solution-oriented (a hand can be fixed, and if not, a synthetic one is actually just as good -- see Luke's). But after Tenel Ka leaves for Hapes, and it turns out there's no purely practical answer, she becomes dejected-- perhaps even moreso than Jacen, who is still thinking about "I've got to make this right". I imagine that Jaina is thinking more along the lines of "what went wrong?" She wants to solve the problem, and when that's impossible, she worries about it a lot.

We can put this next to Zekk joining the baddies. Jacen worries about what he'll do when he has to face Zekk again. He wants to make it right between them. He's sure that's still possible. Jaina is far more concerned with "how has this happened", and worries more about what has happened. There is no ready solution, and it eats at her. We don't get Anakin's perspective, but I imagine that he'd be far quicker to deduce what the twins missed for rather long: why Zekk felt inadequate. I also think that he'd be aware of the correct attitude with which to approach Zekk now-- which neither of the twins manages, initially. Jacen is all "You can just do the right thing again, and all will be okay", and Jaina makes it all about "what drove you to this". Neither initially thinks to ask: "what did I do wrong, and how can I do better". I think Anakin would outright ask Zekk that, and that it would probably defuse the situation fairly effectively.

Anakin is intellectual/philosophical, but he's also kind. He nicely averts the "cold intellectual" trope. Jacen is the idealist, who wants to do the right thing and to sort of maintain/restore harmony among the friends whenever it's lost. And Jaina is the practical one (literally the engineer), who usually takes charge, and who feels the weight of that when things go wrong; when there is no practical solution.

That, at least, is how I read it. NJO switched some (but not all) aspects of Jacen and Anakin right off the bat. And Jaina was written unevenly across the rest of the timeline.
 
Skallagrim said:
When one of the fundamental concepts of the setting is a mystical energy field that connects all life, it's kind of hard to avoid. Especially since it is also inherently about Good and Evil (with capital letters).

-------------------------------
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But having such heavy stuff when all I want s less one character and more world building. Agaian why I like SWTOR
 
SWTOR has some mystical elements? Somewhat?

Vitiate is an extremely mysticism oriented man.
 
I’m referring to Vitiate, and the Sith Empire.

Anyway-Who else agrees that Darth Cognus needs her own fortune telling show?
 
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