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It has a very valuable strategic position on an important straight for world trade and manufacturers a lot of food and fertilizer.

I remember early in the Invasion the pro-Invasion commentators were gloating how after capturing Ukraine Russia would have control over a significant majority of grain and fertilizer production and certain metal manufacturing which I can look up later and what a win it'd be that the West couldn't do anything to stop. 😇
 
Yes, but I don't want to put forward the effort to get facts for your position.

Of course, by that logic almost 3 million people died or left in 2014 and another 1.7 million did the same from 2014 to 2021. Indeed, according to that website Ukraine's population has been dropping every single year since 1999 which... doesn't seem likely or possible.
the key word there is or left. Eastern Europe has had a major issue with their younger generation leaving for wealthier western countries. this has been an issue for a while and the war exasperated an already present issue.
 
Just looking at those, and Ukraine is doing far worse than Russia (the people in the 20s not being there is huge). But I agree it's a stupid argument, population bombs don't matter until literally the next generation. Ukraine is doing a very normal thing: toss the future because otherwise there's no present. Hopefully a post war babyboom fixes it.
I would not say far worse. It does look like their late 90's/early 00's economic troubles had worse effect on fertility and migration (to add to the irony, at that time it had the supposedly oh so beneficial Russian friendship), but the shape of the pyramids is remarkably similar.

I'm more talking about if an actual US ally/strategic interest get's attacked, like Poland or Taiwan. The only reason we care about Ukraine is that Russia wants it. Otherwise it's basically irrelevant.

Literally I barely care about Ukraine. I'm talking about the US here. The only reason the US cares about Ukraine is that Russia cares about it.
Patently wrong simplification.
Also strategic interests, strategic posture, Budapest Memorandum, and the fact that getting high on victory is about the last thing that will discourage Russia from pushing further.
Oh, so if Russia won't agree to any peace, you want war forever then? Because that's the other option.
Chad yes. A Korea (which technically is an actual forever war, many people born after its start died of old age) style scenario is one of the less bad and retarded ones.
Instead, get peace, and in that 5 year gap, add Ukraine to NATO. Then Russia's properly fucked on any westward expansion.
You probably won't get a peace that includes the option of adding Ukraine to NATO and is an actual peace. Russia would make sure to sabotage such a thing by hook or by crook if it still has any fight in it by that point. Out of all things that wins wars or ensures peace, stubborn wishful thinking is not that thing.
At this point Ukraine's victory strategy is to make this war so costly and uncomfortable for Russia that it loses hope of victory or due to ignoring the costs it causes internal political changes that will give Ukraine and the West time to do the arrangements before Russia is able and eager to fight again.
 
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I remember early in the Invasion the pro-Invasion commentators were gloating how after capturing Ukraine Russia would have control over a significant majority of grain and fertilizer production and certain metal manufacturing which I can look up later and what a win it'd be that the West couldn't do anything to stop. 😇

It's more general price hikes on certain things that's the problem. It would be pretty noticeable if, you know, bidenomics wasn't a thing. Inflation... kinda outpaced it.
 
It's more general price hikes on certain things that's the problem. It would be pretty noticeable if, you know, bidenomics wasn't a thing. Inflation... kinda outpaced it.

Yes.

Also I looked it up. It was neon gas and krypton since apparently Ukraine was the source of 90% of the neon used in the US Semiconductor industry.

EDIT:

Lemme see if I can find any posts...

Odessa's fall means US Chip Manufacturing is Kaput

More reason to stay out of the conflict and crack down on the Billionaire Class here at home by seizing their assets and re-industrializing with the seized assets if they don't play ball.



Russians back in Irpin. As expected, UkA was unable to generate enough combat power to do more than open an escape corridor for a time.



Ukrainian retaliatory strike defeated.



Ukraine's tank factory taken out.


Oh those were the days... :D
 
I would not say far worse. It does look like their late 90's/early 00's economic troubles had worse effect on fertility and migration (to add to the irony, at that time it had the supposedly oh so beneficial Russian friendship), but the shape of the pyramids is remarkably similar.
I agree the shape is similar, but Ukraine is far worse. In fact, the total males under 30 number is a lot less for Ukraine vs Russia, by a total of 3.5%. (Ukraine is at 13.5%, Russia at 17%). That's a big difference. The 20s is killer, with 5.2% for Russia vs 3.2% for Ukraine.
Patently wrong simplification.
Also strategic interests, strategic posture, Budapest Memorandum, and the fact that getting high on victory is about the last thing that will discourage Russia from pushing further.
That's the thing. I don't think it actually affects long term US strategic costs if, say, Russia wins tomorrow, assuming we can remove the advanced weapons.

Russia grabbing Ukraine is like the US maintaining a hold of Canada: very important for us, much less affect on others.


If Ukraine was an actual democracy/ally, I'd actually care. But they aren't and have backslid since the war (not surprising, but also not good).


If anything a scarier Russia could be not bad or even good for America, as it tells allies to beef up, which helps vs the actual enemy (China). Yes, Geopolitics is zero sum, but with a multiplayer game, there can still be win-wins for two players if another player is a bigger loser.

But Russia won't be scary, it already got embarrassed on the world stage. Even a total victory for Russia at this point would convey to the world that they are but a paper tiger.
 
Just looking at those, and Ukraine is doing far worse than Russia (the people in the 20s not being there is huge). But I agree it's a stupid argument, population bombs don't matter until literally the next generation. Ukraine is doing a very normal thing: toss the future because otherwise there's no present. Hopefully a post war babyboom fixes it.


I'm more talking about if an actual US ally/strategic interest get's attacked, like Poland or Taiwan. The only reason we care about Ukraine is that Russia wants it. Otherwise it's basically irrelevant.


Literally I barely care about Ukraine. I'm talking about the US here. The only reason the US cares about Ukraine is that Russia cares about it.

Oh, so if Russia won't agree to any peace, you want war forever then? Because that's the other option.

Instead, get peace, and in that 5 year gap, add Ukraine to NATO. Then Russia's properly fucked on any westward expansion.
A forever war like Korea would be fucking great.
It takes out Russia as a player in the world stage forever and forces China into a way they are unable to support or be supported by Russia.

Russia having any sense if victory ir even a peace dela allows then to reinforce fir layer attempts, as well as allows them to help supply China with natural resources in a easier capacity
We are also sending stuff that doesn't fit into this category e.g. HIMARS
You mean a way for us to get more sales because of its effectiveness?
And makes us Produce more?
 
I would not say far worse. It does look like their late 90's/early 00's economic troubles had worse effect on fertility and migration (to add to the irony, at that time it had the supposedly oh so beneficial Russian friendship), but the shape of the pyramids is remarkably similar.


Patently wrong simplification.
Also strategic interests, strategic posture, Budapest Memorandum, and the fact that getting high on victory is about the last thing that will discourage Russia from pushing further.

Chad yes. A Korea (which technically is an actual forever war, many people born after its start died of old age) style scenario is one of the less bad and retarded ones.

You probably won't get a peace that includes the option of adding Ukraine to NATO and is an actual peace. Russia would make sure to sabotage such a thing by hook or by crook if it still has any fight in it by that point. Out of all things that wins wars or ensures peace, stubborn wishful thinking is not that thing.
At this point Ukraine's victory strategy is to make this war so costly and uncomfortable for Russia that it loses hope of victory or due to ignoring the costs it causes internal political changes that will give Ukraine and the West time to do the arrangements before Russia is able and eager to fight again.

Okay so what exactly are we suppose to do then just support Ukraine until the end whatever that looks like? Seriously dude you sound like a spokesman for Raytheon at this point. We need to look at reality and balance a Russian victory against what we would actually lose and gain at this stage of things. Far as I can tell a Russian victory means Europe starts to carry its own weight from now own. Also Ukraine still exists just a bit reduced in its territory.
 
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Okay so what exactly are we suppose to do then just support Ukraine until the end whatever that looks like? Seriously dude you sound like a spokesman for Raytheon at this point. We need to look at reality and balance a Russian victory against what we would actually lose and gain at this stage of things. Far as I can tell a Russian victory means Europe starts to carry its own weight from now own. Also Ukraine still exists just a bit reduced in its territory.
Absolutely nothing good comes from Russia winning. Absolute best case scenario, they choke to death fighting Ukrainian partisans, enacting an escalating spiral of brutal reprisals against a populous that hates them, until either the Russian occupation is driven out, it turns into an outright genocide, or the west finally does intervene directly.

A more likely scenario, Ukraine is cut in a third or a half, and Russia immediately starts rearming for its next expansionist enterprise. They're probably smart enough not to make Ukraine their next target, so they'd more likely try to absorb part or all of one of the central Asian nations that used to be part of the USSR. It'd be a lot harder to support such a country in opposing Russia, and if they succeed there, they will come back for either the rest of Ukraine or one of the Baltics later.

And yes, as others have addressed, in any scenario where Russia wins, if they don't take all of Ukraine outright, they'll demand that the rest of Ukraine never being admitted into NATO is one of the terms of a cessation of hostilities. The Russians will also demand an end to all the economic sanctions they're suffering under, letting them use western parts to feed their defense industry again.


If Ukraine wins, in the absolute worst condition, we have two corrupt nations that hate each other staring at each other across a heavily-armed and increasingly heavily-fortified border, keeping each other partially pinned down so they can't trouble anyone else.

More likely, a Ukrainian victory will mean either someone coups out Putin internally, because the Tsar has humiliated Russia, and that's the one thing that is absolutely intolerable, or he's so busy fending off coup attempts that Russia can't get up to much shit for the rest of his lifespan. Either way, Russia, its military, and its defense industry will have been humiliated on the international stage, and they'll lose even more of their export market, continuing to degrade their defense industry's ability to produce modern hardware.

In this scenario, Russia is turned from a regional superpower to a regional mid-weight, possibly collapsing into civil war and not even being that much, and its ability to support other hostile actors, principally Iran and China, is severely reduced.



The wise thing to do, would be to empty the vaults of every bit of stockpile that's old to the point where we wouldn't use it ourselves, and start churning out every bit of cheap support material we can send the Ukrainians. Artillery shells, drones, small arms and ammunition, stuff like that with a small price tag but fairly substantial impact. Also, shuffle off a lot of our old F-16 inventory, maybe some A-10's and even F-15's, so that they have the air power to support offensive operations, not just inhibit Russian air power.

Stop drip-feeding them support, flood the zone so that the Russians aren't dealing daily with the amount of drone and HIMARS attacks they're currently dealing with weekly, and the Ukrainians will be able to achieve the kind of breakthrough offensive they did in Kharkiv, the sort of thing you need to make this look more like a modern war, and less like WWI.

Frankly, flooding them with war material will cost us less in the long run than the stupid crap the Biden admin is doing right now, where we're sending them huge amounts of cash to fund their government as well.
 
Absolutely nothing good comes from Russia winning. Absolute best case scenario, they choke to death fighting Ukrainian partisans, enacting an escalating spiral of brutal reprisals against a populous that hates them, until either the Russian occupation is driven out, it turns into an outright genocide, or the west finally does intervene directly.

A more likely scenario, Ukraine is cut in a third or a half, and Russia immediately starts rearming for its next expansionist enterprise. They're probably smart enough not to make Ukraine their next target, so they'd more likely try to absorb part or all of one of the central Asian nations that used to be part of the USSR. It'd be a lot harder to support such a country in opposing Russia, and if they succeed there, they will come back for either the rest of Ukraine or one of the Baltics later.

And yes, as others have addressed, in any scenario where Russia wins, if they don't take all of Ukraine outright, they'll demand that the rest of Ukraine never being admitted into NATO is one of the terms of a cessation of hostilities. The Russians will also demand an end to all the economic sanctions they're suffering under, letting them use western parts to feed their defense industry again.


If Ukraine wins, in the absolute worst condition, we have two corrupt nations that hate each other staring at each other across a heavily-armed and increasingly heavily-fortified border, keeping each other partially pinned down so they can't trouble anyone else.

More likely, a Ukrainian victory will mean either someone coups out Putin internally, because the Tsar has humiliated Russia, and that's the one thing that is absolutely intolerable, or he's so busy fending off coup attempts that Russia can't get up to much shit for the rest of his lifespan. Either way, Russia, its military, and its defense industry will have been humiliated on the international stage, and they'll lose even more of their export market, continuing to degrade their defense industry's ability to produce modern hardware.

In this scenario, Russia is turned from a regional superpower to a regional mid-weight, possibly collapsing into civil war and not even being that much, and its ability to support other hostile actors, principally Iran and China, is severely reduced.



The wise thing to do, would be to empty the vaults of every bit of stockpile that's old to the point where we wouldn't use it ourselves, and start churning out every bit of cheap support material we can send the Ukrainians. Artillery shells, drones, small arms and ammunition, stuff like that with a small price tag but fairly substantial impact. Also, shuffle off a lot of our old F-16 inventory, maybe some A-10's and even F-15's, so that they have the air power to support offensive operations, not just inhibit Russian air power.

Stop drip-feeding them support, flood the zone so that the Russians aren't dealing daily with the amount of drone and HIMARS attacks they're currently dealing with weekly, and the Ukrainians will be able to achieve the kind of breakthrough offensive they did in Kharkiv, the sort of thing you need to make this look more like a modern war, and less like WWI.

Frankly, flooding them with war material will cost us less in the long run than the stupid crap the Biden admin is doing right now, where we're sending them huge amounts of cash to fund their government as well.

Let me clarify a Russian victory at this stage means they basically end up with what they currently occupy.
 
Let me clarify a Russian victory at this stage means they basically end up with what they currently occupy.
They can't accept that.

If they could, they'd already have stopped.

Maybe after Russia's internal politics change, or long grueling years of war where the lines don't change much, but right now, that would be admitting the invasion of Ukraine failed, something Putin cannot afford to do.
 
They can't accept that.

If they could, they'd already have stopped.

Maybe after Russia's internal politics change, or long grueling years of war where the lines don't change much, but right now, that would be admitting the invasion of Ukraine failed, something Putin cannot afford to do.

I think they don't really have a choice and this is just how things are.
 
Nah, they don't.

If Ukraine won't stop, they war keeps on. It takes 2 to stop.
Putin can withdraw his troops tomorrow and the kinetic actions would cease rather quickly; sanctions relief would have to wait till reparations were fully paid by Russia for Ukraine's rebuilding.

Ukraine did not chose this war, Putin and Russia did, and it could end very quickly if the powers in Russia would just pull their troops back behind Ukraine's internationally recognized borders and not fire across them.

This war is on Putin and Russia alone, the consequence and punishment for it is on the Russian people and those who willing help them.

Russia must not be allowed any victory, any consolation prize, and must be broken of it's imperial ambitions for the good of the human species, not just the US, West, or Ukraine.
 
Putin can withdraw his troops tomorrow and the kinetic actions would cease rather quickly; sanctions relief would have to wait till reparations were fully paid by Russia for Ukraine's rebuilding.

Ukraine did not chose this war, Putin and Russia did, and it could end very quickly if the powers in Russia would just pull their troops back behind Ukraine's internationally recognized borders and not fire across them.

This war is on Putin and Russia alone, the consequence and punishment for it is on the Russian people and those who willing help them.

Russia must not be allowed any victory, any consolation prize, and must be broken of it's imperial ambitions for the good of the human species, not just the US, West, or Ukraine.

They did not choose this war but they also cannot win this war and Putin can.
 
They did not choose this war but they also cannot win this war and Putin can.
Yes Ukraine can win this war, and force Russia off it's lands.

It will not be a fast process, but it is possible and it appears Ukraine has a multi-year plan for it.

It is why Ukraine is carrying out deep strikes against Russian oil and gas infrastructure, weapons plants, and the electrical grid right now. Zelensky has said the focus of 2024 is on hitting Russia systemically, hurting their ability to wage war on the scale they are, while increasing Ukraine's air defense to minimize the damage Russian strikes can do to the civies and infrastructure, and allowing Ukraine to own it's own skies.

Once Ukraine has effective air superiority over it's own lands again, it will make pushing the Russian's out on the ground much easier.

This is also why Ukraine is pushing out so many drones and unmanned systems, to keep from having to spend as many lives compared to the Russians. If the Russian interior keeps getting whacked by UA drones, Russia will be forced to pull back it's own limited amount of air defense assets from the front line to simply keep shit intact inside Russia.

Putin and Russia will not be allowed any victory in Ukraine, and will be pushed out; it'd happen faster if the Dems would stop slow rolling aid while blaming it on the GOP (who keeps shooting itself in the foot about UA).
 
Putin can withdraw his troops tomorrow and the kinetic actions would cease rather quickly; sanctions relief would have to wait till reparations were fully paid by Russia for Ukraine's rebuilding.


I'm not so sure. If Russia stops, will will Ukraine? Not automatically. With massive US money coming in, on the condition that they die for your desires, I don't think they will.

Unless the Ukraine is willing to stop, and Russia as well, the war will not stop. As you have said in this thread, the US is using Ukraine to weaken Russia. However it started, whatever's in the backstory, this is a horror with immense deaths, and you are in favor of all the deaths and horror involved.



I thought better of you.
 
Yes Ukraine can win this war, and force Russia off it's lands.

It will not be a fast process, but it is possible and it appears Ukraine has a multi-year plan for it.

It is why Ukraine is carrying out deep strikes against Russian oil and gas infrastructure, weapons plants, and the electrical grid right now. Zelensky has said the focus of 2024 is on hitting Russia systemically, hurting their ability to wage war on the scale they are, while increasing Ukraine's air defense to minimize the damage Russian strikes can do to the civies and infrastructure, and allowing Ukraine to own it's own skies.

Once Ukraine has effective air superiority over it's own lands again, it will make pushing the Russian's out on the ground much easier.

This is also why Ukraine is pushing out so many drones and unmanned systems, to keep from having to spend as many lives compared to the Russians. If the Russian interior keeps getting whacked by UA drones, Russia will be forced to pull back it's own limited amount of air defense assets from the front line to simply keep shit intact inside Russia.

Putin and Russia will not be allowed any victory in Ukraine, and will be pushed out; it'd happen faster if the Dems would stop slow rolling aid while blaming it on the GOP (who keeps shooting itself in the foot about UA).

Dude you are delusional about this conflict, There are no numbers of Ukrainians you will not sacrifice so long as your asinine anti Russian views are met.
 
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I agree the shape is similar, but Ukraine is far worse. In fact, the total males under 30 number is a lot less for Ukraine vs Russia, by a total of 3.5%. (Ukraine is at 13.5%, Russia at 17%). That's a big difference. The 20s is killer, with 5.2% for Russia vs 3.2% for Ukraine.
13.5% vs 17% is a 21% relative difference, wouldn't call that far worse.
That's the thing. I don't think it actually affects long term US strategic costs if, say, Russia wins tomorrow, assuming we can remove the advanced weapons.
Then you think wrong. It would be a major threat of NATO unraveling, and if you think that's not a significant effect on US long term strategic thinking you probably give up on thinking about these things.
Russia grabbing Ukraine is like the US maintaining a hold of Canada: very important for us, much less affect on others.
Russia grabbing Ukraine has a lot more second order effects and we both know it, we can stop pretending its a good analogy.
If Ukraine was an actual democracy/ally, I'd actually care. But they aren't and have backslid since the war (not surprising, but also not good).
Whatever, don't care.
If anything a scarier Russia could be not bad or even good for America, as it tells allies to beef up, which helps vs the actual enemy (China). Yes, Geopolitics is zero sum, but with a multiplayer game, there can still be win-wins for two players if another player is a bigger loser.
Russia and China are buddies in wanting US global influence to go down, there is no "but China is the actual enemy", they will absolutely cooperate in that goal, even if in nothing else. Ditto for Iran, NK and several others. For all the retarded shit they do, at least the other side is not finding brainless the sheer willful blindness cult called isolationism appealing these days.
But Russia won't be scary, it already got embarrassed on the world stage. Even a total victory for Russia at this point would convey to the world that they are but a paper tiger.
Their logic is that they won't be feeling embarrassed if they win in the end, and they and their friends care very little about what we think, results matter, not what we think.
 
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