Election 2020 Election 2020: It's (almost) over! (maybe...possibly...ahh who are we kidding, it's 2020!)

Megadeath

Well-known member
We haven't just lost the vote; we lost the courts too. Not one allowed evidence to be argued; that's insane.
Jesus, and you had a go at me for persistence and repetition? Remember that, and how the fact this claim is false was actually addressed then, along with other times previously? Cases were heard, and evidence was presented. Where do you think things like the "non-zero number of people in the room" quote come from, or the statement from the judge that the affidavits presented reflect a simple lack of understanding of the procedures, and the poll watchers should have attended their walk through? Or the cases where the trump team went to pains to be clear that they weren't alleging fraud, which is why they weren't presenting evidence for it?
 

Megadeath

Well-known member
Low and behold, @Terthna once again made an entirely bullshit claim, in this case directly after a post that shows exactly how wrong he is. And notably his response is nothing. "Oh, none of the courts would even listen to the evidence!" Well, guess what; they did! There was no evidence of meaningful fraud or election tampering. The case suggesting such was so pathetically weak the trump campaign wasn't even willing to make it in a forum where they could be held to evidentiary standards.
 
Just a Friendly Observation!

CurtisLemay

Wargamer, Amateur Historian, Writer
Nuke Mod
Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
So far everybody has been very good about keeping everything civil, keep it up! We are showing that it is indeed possible to disagree without leaping across the table to throttle each other. The mod staff is hopeful that this will continue!

As always the mod staff is here to address any questions or concerns.


Thanks and please return to your regularly scheduled debate.
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Obozny
I was under the impression that none of the cases involving accusations of fraudulent activity were ever contested in court; they were dismissed outright. Is it true there were absolutely no court hearings?

None of them made it to trial, but there were a number of hearings where Trump's team attempted to prove a case and failed to do so. The typical counter claim to that is that none of those cases were allowed to go on to discovery where they could go and actually dig through records to find the evidence they needed....but that's simply not how the system works, you can't sue people and then go digging through their files hoping to find evidence that you can actually use, you need to prove a case probably exists first.

The pro-Trump people have a few fair points, the SC inexcusably ducked several cases about Pennsylvania illegally altering their election laws and refused to address those cases until after the election, when damage had already been done, and that incident probably fueled a lot of suspicions that other courts had been similarly derelict......but that's just not the case, if there is the sort of smoking gun, provable fraud evidence that's been alleged, they had the chance to present it in court many times.
 

Airedale260

Well-known member
I was under the impression that none of the cases involving accusations of fraudulent activity were ever contested in court; they were dismissed outright. Is it true there were absolutely no court hearings?

It is not.

Now, I'm not a lawyer but I'm friends with a couple of them and due to my professional background I have a decent understanding of the legal process, civil and criminal. So I may be wrong on a couple of the minor details, but here is what happened:

-Court cases are filed in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, purportedly alleging massive voter fraud and asking for relief.

-The court in both cases accepts that the plaintiffs have standing and allow the suits to go ahead.

-When the lawyers appear before the court to make their arguments (and I mean Giuliani personally among others), the lawyers for the defendants (the Democrats and the Biden campaign) stipulate (that is, both sides, plaintiff and defendant, agree on the substance of a particular fact or set of facts, like the sky is blue for example) and make their arguments from the standpoint of "this is the truth as accepted by both sides and not in dispute") that no meaningful fraud occurred. As with any legal motion, however, the other side has a right to object on the merits; that is, let's say the other side says the sky is actually gray. If there is an objection, then the judge goes "Okay, let's hear the evidence from each side." Now, you might be wondering what happens if a judge overrules the objection when it's valid, and I'll get to that a bit later, but the short form is, that's something that would be perfectly valid and tailor-made for an appeal.

Anyway, when the stipulation comes up, Giuliani and Co readily agree to the stipulation (that is, the Democrats go "We stipulate that there was no meaningful fraud", the judge says "Mr. Giuliani, do you object to the stipulation?" and Rudy's response is "No, Your Honor, we do not object."

That happened in both the Pennsylvania and Wisconsin cases. And the Wisconsin judge, a Trump appointee to the bench, I might add, went "Wait, what?"

Now, some of the othee cases were dismissed before discovery that might have uncovered stuff, but as Battlegrinder noted above, you can't just sue someone and then look for evidence.

That's not to say that everything was perfectly above board, mind you, but for any case there is a serious burden of proof, especially if the allegation being made is one that would likely result in criminal charges as well. But in order to establish this, the plaintiff needs to make sure they've crossed every t and dotted every i, because in something like this where you're already facing an uphill climb in trying to get a court to *overturn an entire election*, you absolutely need to be on the ball. And the GOP and Trump campaign, especially in Pennsylvania and Arizona, were not.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
Anyway, when the stipulation comes up, Giuliani and Co readily agree to the stipulation (that is, the Democrats go "We stipulate that there was no meaningful fraud", the judge says "Mr. Giuliani, do you object to the stipulation?" and Rudy's response is "No, Your Honor, we do not object."

That happened in both the Pennsylvania and Wisconsin cases. And the Wisconsin judge, a Trump appointee to the bench, I might add, went "Wait, what?"
If he said fraud, he would have had to prove motive. Without fraud, he would only have to that the vote was incorrectly counted.

The was he should have responded is that while he believes proving motive is something to be done at a later date, and he only seeks to prove that the count is tainted at this point.
 

lordmcdeath

Well-known member
If he said fraud, he would have had to prove motive. Without fraud, he would only have to that the vote was incorrectly counted.

The was he should have responded is that while he believes proving motive is something to be done at a later date, and he only seeks to prove that the count is tainted at this point.

Giuliani was New York criminal prosecutor who hadn't practiced in more than a decade. He had no business handling any of these lawsuits. You need state specific or federal election law specialists, but you are really better off with the states for these sort of cases. Its like having your divorce attorney try to defend you for murder. Its not remotely what they are good at and in this case, he wasn't in fighting shape either.

Trump's habit of not paying his attorneys have not made him popular with the sort of people he should have had on deck for this sort of thing in every major battleground state, but if you are willing to put the money in escaro that shouldn't have stopped that from happening. He raised over a billion, he could have spent some of that get people who actually know what they are doing. Instead of the poorly coordinated scattering gun of people, where many of the lawyers aren't even licensed to practice in that state with filling that any first year lawsuit would be embarrassed by.

Also, the huge number of lawsuits actually hurt him as well. As avadaffits and other sworn testimony, along with other claims that have been previous dismissed are far less likely to be viewed as compelling, so those other groups who used them before the actual campaign's lawsuits were filed made them less likely sway judges.

As for the people who voted and shouldn't have been able to, every state that doesn't have same day registration specify that you challenge those voters before they vote, not after. The local republican party or the campaign could have easily requested the rolls and started investigating immediately. Those voters if they showed up would have gotten provisional ballots and if they were successfully challenged those votes wouldn't have been counted.
 

ATP

Well-known member
So,american optimats killed/politically/ american Grakhus.Now, american Republic would either follow roman and become empire,or follow polish Republic from 18th century and become destroyed by enemies paing their optimats./China/
You still have strong army,which Poland have not,so i think imperium is more probable.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
So,american optimats killed/politically/ american Grakhus.Now, american Republic would either follow roman and become empire,or follow polish Republic from 18th century and become destroyed by enemies paing their optimats./China/
You still have strong army,which Poland have not,so i think imperium is more probable.

Different geography were not on the european super highway of death like poland is.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
So,american optimats killed/politically/ american Grakhus.Now, american Republic would either follow roman and become empire,or follow polish Republic from 18th century and become destroyed by enemies paing their optimats./China/
You still have strong army,which Poland have not,so i think imperium is more probable.

Maybe. Another factor with the Romans though was that from what I know, their army was more decentralized and personally loyal to specific generals than ours is. I don't think there are any Caesars among our generals. The closest might be Mattis, in terms of generals with the ability to win over the loyalty of the troops, but as far as I know he's politically pretty much where the standard republican natsec industrial complex people are. Not a position that is willing to actually go against the system.

I've been reading about the Spanish and Russian Civil Wars lately. One important difference between our positions and theirs was that there was a gap between the at least significant portions of the officer class and the intelligensia. In contrast, the global american empire's top brass / natsec industrial complex is pretty well aligned with the it's intelligensia. I can't see any movement against the establishment regime originating with the military- it might be able to win some of it over or secure it's neutrality, but it's not going to be based out of the military.
 
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GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
It is not.

Now, I'm not a lawyer but I'm friends with a couple of them and due to my professional background I have a decent understanding of the legal process, civil and criminal. So I may be wrong on a couple of the minor details, but here is what happened:

-Court cases are filed in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, purportedly alleging massive voter fraud and asking for relief.

-The court in both cases accepts that the plaintiffs have standing and allow the suits to go ahead.

-When the lawyers appear before the court to make their arguments (and I mean Giuliani personally among others), the lawyers for the defendants (the Democrats and the Biden campaign) stipulate (that is, both sides, plaintiff and defendant, agree on the substance of a particular fact or set of facts, like the sky is blue for example) and make their arguments from the standpoint of "this is the truth as accepted by both sides and not in dispute") that no meaningful fraud occurred. As with any legal motion, however, the other side has a right to object on the merits; that is, let's say the other side says the sky is actually gray. If there is an objection, then the judge goes "Okay, let's hear the evidence from each side." Now, you might be wondering what happens if a judge overrules the objection when it's valid, and I'll get to that a bit later, but the short form is, that's something that would be perfectly valid and tailor-made for an appeal.

Anyway, when the stipulation comes up, Giuliani and Co readily agree to the stipulation (that is, the Democrats go "We stipulate that there was no meaningful fraud", the judge says "Mr. Giuliani, do you object to the stipulation?" and Rudy's response is "No, Your Honor, we do not object."

That happened in both the Pennsylvania and Wisconsin cases. And the Wisconsin judge, a Trump appointee to the bench, I might add, went "Wait, what?"

Now, some of the othee cases were dismissed before discovery that might have uncovered stuff, but as Battlegrinder noted above, you can't just sue someone and then look for evidence.

That's not to say that everything was perfectly above board, mind you, but for any case there is a serious burden of proof, especially if the allegation being made is one that would likely result in criminal charges as well. But in order to establish this, the plaintiff needs to make sure they've crossed every t and dotted every i, because in something like this where you're already facing an uphill climb in trying to get a court to *overturn an entire election*, you absolutely need to be on the ball. And the GOP and Trump campaign, especially in Pennsylvania and Arizona, were not.
If the lawsuit was filed because of fraud allegations, yet Giuliani agreed that there was no fraud, how did he justify the lawsuit? What DID he allege, in front of the judge, if not massive fraud?
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Maybe. Another factor with the Romans though was that from what I know, their army was more decentralized and personally loyal to specific generals than ours is.

IIRC, a large part of the reason for this, was because the revocation of the 'citizen soldier' laws and ethos. At one point, all soldiers had been land-owners, and part of why the Roman Legions were so numerous and driven, was because the Legionaires had a stake in Rome.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
If the lawsuit was filed because of fraud allegations, yet Giuliani agreed that there was no fraud, how did he justify the lawsuit? What DID he allege, in front of the judge, if not massive fraud?

My understanding is he alleged errors in the vote totals, and procedural errors, but not that they were done intentionally or maliciously.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
My understanding is he alleged errors in the vote totals, and procedural errors, but not that they were done intentionally or maliciously.

OK, so what's the problem with that? To my understanding, the thousands of affidavits could be used to argue for this position just as well. Why were the claims dismissed? Why was the evidence considered insufficient?
 

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