It is good to admit that your side is the one that will resort to violence when they don't get what they want.
Election 2020 Election 2020: It's (almost) over! (maybe...possibly...ahh who are we kidding, it's 2020!)
- Thread starter Emperor Tippy
- Start date
It is good to admit that your side is the one that will resort to violence when they don't get what they want.
If state legislatures attempt to steal an election, well they are gonna get what they deserve. Even in the alternate reality, you exist in, the state legislatures who were elected in the same election with Biden would have their electoral victory have no more legitimacy than his.
It's a moot point though cause the legislatures ain't gonna risk committing political suicide cause you feelings got hurt by an election result.
That isn't stealing the election, it is overturning a theft. So they deserve to get attacked for refusing to let on an election get stolen because that is somehow stealing it, got it. And no, they have plenty of legitimacy since they didn't cheat. And our alternate reality is just called reality, I am not sure what reality you live in, is it one where the Bernstain/Bernstein bears are actually the Bernschen Bears?
We aren't the people who burnt down cities because our feelings have been hurt. And you are advocating for violence for the very same, the legislature hurts your feelings by acting within their legal right and as you admit you will react with violence.
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
This is currently the number of flipped seats?
Democrats in party must not be happy.
Impressive how you think a legislature has the legitimacy to overturn an election result when they were elected on the same ballot they would claim was stolen and filled with fraud.
Also thinking the democrats stole an election when outside of the presidency they actually performed pretty terribly is also impressive. Amazing ability to rig voting machines to give more votes to Biden but an inability to rig it to give them anything else. Wonder why that happened ?
suprising the democrats let this happen given that they rigged the election for Biden
They were not elected on the same ballot that was stolen. If you aren't doing the stealing it isn't stolen, and if it isn't stolen you are legitimate. Can't you follow basic logic?
You mean like how there were seats that mysteriously flipped to Republican from Democrat when people actually looked into the vote totals? Or the suspicious amount of Biden only ballots.
Unhappy Anchovy
Well-known member
Remember that 'the media' in this case is not a single organisation with a single voice. We are talking about dozens or hundreds of independent media organisations all over the world. A key part of my argument is that this is not a matter of, say, the New York Times playing down something unflattering or unamenable to their worldview. For the fraud argument to be correct, a huge number of entirely independent organisations and actors all need to be either lying or fooled, which simply on the face of it is far less likely than the alternative hypothesis that it's just Donald Trump who's a liar.
An alternative hypothesis which, I might not, is supported by Donald Trump's entire public career up to this point. If you're asking me to believe that the entire global media ecosystem, from left wing to right, from America to Britain to China to India, and politicians from Netenyahu to Boris Johnson to Narendra Modi, are all lying or mistaken, and that Trump is the only person telling the truth, especially given Trump's visible track record, then I expect some extremely solid evidence.
Competing hypothesis, as I said in my earlier post. Either Trump and his team are lying, or the entire rest of the world is lying - and as noted, Trump demonstrably tells blatant lies when the truth isn't flattering to him.
The thesis that, not to put too fine a point on it, the entire world is so afraid of and intimidated by Joe Biden that they immediately congratulated him on his victory even in the face of accusations of fraud from his opponent is frankly ridiculous. I don't know what to say here other than Biden is not that scary.
You don't have so many people supporting Trump. There's a YouGov study here: see page 72. About 80% of Trump voters in 2020 say there was enough voter fraud to influence the outcome, in contrast to 3% of Biden voters. By party affiliation, 78% of Republican voters say there was, 39% of Independent voters say there was, and 7% of Democratic voters say there was. Note that this is only the United States: I would be extremely shocked if figures outside the US were even remotely close.
That makes it clear that it is absolutely a partisan issue. It is to all intents and purposes only Trump voters who say there was fraud. That makes sense, since Trump himself is the person claiming there was fraud.
As for the 'everyone' I mention: this was covered in that initial post. Check the links there. As I said, pretty much the entire world, if judged by their leaders and official statements, says that Biden won. The only noticeable exceptions are Mexico, Brazil, and Russia. Heck, to repeat myself, the Department of Homeland Security says that there was no fraud, and that's the very government that Trump is in charge of!
...by that logic, anyone who protests against anything proves that the other side is right. Harassing lawyers is always wrong, but the fact that it has happened does not prove Trump's case. It does not prove anything.
What are you talking about? I've often argued with people on the left on SB. Look, I remember getting besieged by people when I told them that it was wrong to be so viciously gleeful after the death of David Koch, and now I'm getting besieged here, but from my perspective I am being entirely consistent. I always try to tell the truth, even - especially - to people who don't want to hear it.
But if all you have to give me are insults and accusations of being blind, then there is no more to say.
Well given their elections were held simultaneously and were administered by the same people, they were elected on the same ballot that elected Biden. If the election was rigged for Biden, then their own election was suspect. Down-ballot drop-off is a thing that never happens. Every real voter fills in their entire 5-page ballot filled with 20 proposition and County Coroner elections/s.
Average Drop-off Rate in 2016 Down From 2012 | The Center for Election Innovation & Research
Prior to the November general election, many wondered how negative feelings towards both presidential candidates would impact other races on the ballot, since voters in […]
electioninnovation.org
Can confirm.
Also, he's simply hedging his bets. He has been accused, domestically and abroad, of making Israel a partisan issue, dividing Americans on the Israel issue along party lines, while historically support has been bipartisan.
In Israel, both the media and the opposition routinely accuse him of such.
Opposition leader accuses Netanyahu of alienating Democrats for personal gain
MK Yair Lapid says PM to blame for Israel no longer being a bipartisan cause in US, but insists both Trump or Biden will be friends of Jewish state
www.timesofisrael.com
It would be politically disastrous for Netanyahu to throw his support for Trump, and then find out that Biden is president after all. He would be roasted both by the Biden administration, who won't be likely to forget the slight, and by domestic media, who will be screaming that they were right all along about him.
On the other hand, what does he have to lose in the opposite case, if he congratulates Biden and then Trump takes the presidency? A big fat nothing. He'll be forgiven for this seeing as the vast majority of western world leaders congratulated Biden as well, and the fact that American media (and consequently, Israeli media) considered it a done deal at the time.
Even despite all these incentives, he still ended up calling it later than most leaders:
Netanyahu congratulates Biden on US election win
en.globes.co.il
No. Bringing up arguments from 2 years ago as a counter to an argument made in the present is an attack on a person's reputation or track record that evades the argument itself, in other words, the definition of an ad-hominem attack.
Speaking of illiteracy, it's ad-hominem, not ad-hommein. Hominem, as in "man" or "person" in Latin. Don't know what hommein is. Maybe an ad-hominem attack made under the influence of heroin.
Bringin up statements on the same topic made by somebody 2 years ago is evidence when it's on the same topic. an ad-hominem is an irrelevant character attack, for example, using the fact that somebody is hypothetically commited adultery to claim they have no credibility on the topic of election law.
somebody's past statements on the same topic are absolutely relevant to their credibility on the same topic.
No. It's really, really not. The topic is vaguely related (supreme court, elections) but the arguments and specifics are substantially different.
Your attack is, likewise, an irrelevant character attack. The similarity of the topics does not give you a carte-blanche to bypass a different argument that is only tangentially related.
Not in the context of a debate they're not.
If they aren't a singular organization with one voice why are they acting like it? Independent? What are you talking about? Most of the mainstream media is confined to the ownership of a few people. They are owned by the oligarchs, they are not at all independent. So again your argument falls flat. And people in media all run in the same circles by and large, so your argument falls even more flat. So flat as to make Death Valley justice. And as we said these world leaders are playing politics, yet you ignore all we say. Do I need to post clips of these supposedly independent news outlets all having the same talking points? Because I can.
What rest of the world? You mean the millions of people who believe in fraud or the world leaders who backed Trump don't exist? That we are all imaginary. You know it sucks being non-existent, really sucks. I guess, I need to fade from the world now.
And is it just me or are you not addressing any of my actual points, but returning to the same argument again and again?
No, just some men who would have reason to fear that he might retaliate if they don't play ball. Is it not at all congruent to say that a man who was mean enough to engage in such dirty politics then would do so know? A man who threatened a country over investigating corrupt he was linked to, would threaten a country over something equally as petty?
Sorry, but polls in this day and age have a track record of being inaccurate. So thusly, I will take it with a grain of
Something being partisan does not make it incorrect. And just because it is one man versus the world as you say does not make him wrong. I seem to remember that this is said about a certain man from the Levant, how the entire world was against him, but he knew the truth and that though doomed he was he still persisted in the truth and ultimately prevailed. If you believe such a story, or any story like it, such as story of the Philosopher who was fed hemlock- then you ought to allow for the chance that Trump is right and that everyone else is wrong. In fact, is it not moral courage to stand up for what you believe to be right against everyone else. Even against their slings, their arrows, and their accusations? To stand firm?
So swamp critters without evidence claiming every is clear, definitely evidence.
Yes it does prove something. That they want to derail this so much that they will stoop to low tactics? And why would they then want to derail this so much? Does that not show fear? And what innocent man would fear the revelation of truth in a court so much? In fact it is not just something, it is plenty. And here is why I call you blind, you ignore the apparent, you ignore the logical conclusions that can be drawn.
You are saying that someone acting in a suspect manner proves nothing. Got it. I could be standing over someone with a smoking gun and that would prove nothing, got it.
I am talking about every time, I have seen people on the right talk to you. And bring up their issues on the right. Not about you getting into fights with the left as well, because you are a fence sitter.
By your own metric you are insulting us and accusing us. Calling us conspiracy theoriests. So get off your high horse, I am only calling what I see and I see blindness and it is clear now willing. And if you weren't blind, then why aren't you calling out the poor actions of those on your side in this very thread? You know supporting violence when political decision making doesn't go their way?
Well given their elections were held simultaneously and were administered by the same people, they were elected on the same ballot that elected Biden. If the election was rigged for Biden, then their own election was suspect. Down-ballot drop-off is a thing that never happens. Every real voter fills in their entire 5-page ballot filled with 20 proposition and County Coroner elections/s.
Average Drop-off Rate in 2016 Down From 2012 | The Center for Election Innovation & Research
Prior to the November general election, many wondered how negative feelings towards both presidential candidates would impact other races on the ballot, since voters in […]
Then that would be democrats and democrats only, since people tend to vote straight ticket. The Republicans should by and large be fine.
Then why were there so many Biden-only ballots? Doesn't that strike you as odd when there are so many options to choose from? People would find at least one that would grab them.
By your own metric we can dismiss you as being unstable, due to supporting political violence when decisions are made that you do not like.
You all are the ones who wanna override democracy when it's gone against you. The fact that you've deluded yourself into thinking you've won doesn't change that.
No, we want to go through the legal processes when we believe the democratic process has been meddled with. The only one who is deluded is you. Claiming that what is apparent is in fact not.
Electoral fraud is not the democratic will, unless you mean that of the democratic party. And of course we want to override their will when it goes against ours. It is how politics works.
@Unhappy Anchovy Your arguments are a bit ridiculous, to be honest. You don't need a vast conspiracy to pull this off.
Foreign states are not going to challenge the result of American elections because it's a sovereign American matter and they follow the cue of internal US media to determine what's going on. There's really nothing more to it. Only a nation that has huge stakes in this election is going to bother weighting in at all, and that's a minority of them. Moreover, there's a strong incentive to "follow the lead" of European countries in this matter, because you don't want to stand out internationally as a nation that interferes with an internal American manner against the flow of what the "civilized world" deemed fit. It would cost them a lot, politically, to call out an election fraud in the US, which is simply not worth it.
As far as the American media is concerned, like @Hlaalu Agent has mentioned, most media outlets are owned at the highest levels by a handful of the ultra-rich elite. Also, there's such a thing as "professional culture" and groupthink, outlets following the cue of other outlets and so on and so forth. It's overwhelmingly obvious that Trump-bashing, and right-bashing in general, has been deeply ingrained in journalist culture for years now. News companies are unlikely to hire new employees if they are not conforming to their own ideology, meaning that the problem gets worse over time. In all objective "tests", such as reporting on extremely similar events, except one with a pro-left slant and the other a pro-right slant, virtually all the big media outlets have put a left-wing spin on it. It's not a conspiracy and it honestly doesn't require a lot of plotting and scheming to make it happen, it's simply fact. There are ex-journalists that have talked in length about these kind of media agenda stuff and their personal experiences with them, Tim Pool among the most famous ones, but by far not the only one.
And foreign media? They'll always just going to parrot US news on a purely American matter. There's no conspiracy there, merely the realities of reporting.
Foreign states are not going to challenge the result of American elections because it's a sovereign American matter and they follow the cue of internal US media to determine what's going on. There's really nothing more to it. Only a nation that has huge stakes in this election is going to bother weighting in at all, and that's a minority of them. Moreover, there's a strong incentive to "follow the lead" of European countries in this matter, because you don't want to stand out internationally as a nation that interferes with an internal American manner against the flow of what the "civilized world" deemed fit. It would cost them a lot, politically, to call out an election fraud in the US, which is simply not worth it.
As far as the American media is concerned, like @Hlaalu Agent has mentioned, most media outlets are owned at the highest levels by a handful of the ultra-rich elite. Also, there's such a thing as "professional culture" and groupthink, outlets following the cue of other outlets and so on and so forth. It's overwhelmingly obvious that Trump-bashing, and right-bashing in general, has been deeply ingrained in journalist culture for years now. News companies are unlikely to hire new employees if they are not conforming to their own ideology, meaning that the problem gets worse over time. In all objective "tests", such as reporting on extremely similar events, except one with a pro-left slant and the other a pro-right slant, virtually all the big media outlets have put a left-wing spin on it. It's not a conspiracy and it honestly doesn't require a lot of plotting and scheming to make it happen, it's simply fact. There are ex-journalists that have talked in length about these kind of media agenda stuff and their personal experiences with them, Tim Pool among the most famous ones, but by far not the only one.
And foreign media? They'll always just going to parrot US news on a purely American matter. There's no conspiracy there, merely the realities of reporting.
Is a vote audit and recount "overriding democracy"? It would make the vote counting more accurate, meaning more democratic, not less. The only reason you are against it is because you're afraid it might benefit your political rival.
I personally think democracy should be defended by people who actually care about it.
I'm glad your one of them Ranger.
@Unhappy Anchovy I am going to lay this out clearly. I am not insulting you or accusing you, I honestly think you are being blind. And I may be getting mean about the thing, and being too forthright with it due to being frustrated, upset, on the edge and many things. And I will apologize for how I am voicing these opinions if I have gone too far in that.
Or just too unkind in general. It don't like mistreating people and I am sure you have talked to me enough to gather than any sort of unkind action towards you is my own temper or passions getting the better of me rather than any malice towards you.
Or just too unkind in general. It don't like mistreating people and I am sure you have talked to me enough to gather than any sort of unkind action towards you is my own temper or passions getting the better of me rather than any malice towards you.