• The Sietch will be brought offline for HPG systems maintenance tomorrow (Thursday, 2 May 2024). Please remain calm and do not start any interstellar wars while ComStar is busy. May the Peace of Blake be with you. Precentor Dune

Israel versus Palestine: 2021 Edition

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
Most of your points have been addressed by other people, but now I also have the time to answer your drivel.

First, you are welcome to cite anywhere in my posts I said military improvements alone constitute a victory. Rather, I based my statements on the facts acknowledged by non Arab sources; namely, that Hamas has discredited Fatah pretty heavily through this, for one key example.

"Discrediting Fatah" has never been a victory condition in this conflict with Israel, so it is irrelevant. Furthermore, continuous development of capabilities is irrelevant to discrediting Fatah. As long as Hamas doesn't score an actual, visible victory in the form of major political concessions from Israel, concessions that Fatah failed to achieve, but Hamas succeeded through force of arms, improvements in their military capabilities do not do anything to discredit Fatah.

Specific to the points made, you tacitly conceded at the end of this post exactly what I was saying; Israeli options are increasingly limited.

OK, a bold claim. Let's see your evidence of that.

2014 broke them of the desire to put ground troops into Gaza

There is no evidence that this is the case. In 2014 Israel made a very limited incursion specifically to destroy cross-border attack tunnels. It had a limited, tactical aim, in which it fully succeeded, as is evident by the fact no attack tunnels were used by Hamas in this conflict (they have all been destroyed in 2014, and the IDF developed further countermeasures against them).

Israel has always refrained from using its ground forces unless strictly necessary, opting to use its air force wherever it could instead. Should the air force prove insufficient toward achieving a certain goal, I see no evidence that the IDF would refrain from sending its ground forces to achieve said goal.

In this round of fighting, as you may have noticed, the IDF had a huge bank of targets that could successfully be bombed from the air. It also successfully assassinated a whole bunch of senior Hamas officers, again, from the air. In return, it suffered some light casualties, 12 people killed. There was absolutely no pressure to involve the ground forces in risky, high-casualty operations, when the air force was doing its job perfectly well.

If the casualties started mounting on the Israeli side, if a ceasefire wasn't forced by Biden, and if the air force had time to bomb out the entirety of its pre-prepared target bank, you would have very likely seen a ground operation by the IDF, limited or otherwise.

and in 2021 they were forced to rely upon airstrikes....which utterly failed to dent the capabilities of Hamas to sustain action.

That is nonsense. At the opening of the war (May 11th), a powerful volley of ~130 rockets was launched at the Tel Aviv area, killing one. A few days later, another volley on Tel Aviv, this time of only ~40 rockets.

The last such volley was on May 15th (Hebrew link). This is another advantage of actually being on the ground and experiencing events, rather than reading about them sporadically from the twisted lens of Western media reporting. I actually have a clear understanding of the timeline of rocket attacks on Israel, which you obviously lack.

Then, after multiple threats of launching on Tel Aviv again if Israel continues targeting Hamas officers, there was zilch. Israel continued to ignore the threats, and continued to carry out attacks against Hamas officers, as well as targeting multi-story buildings. Hamas kept threatening, without delivering. Only the south was continued to be bombed, and even then with lesser regularity and firepower.

If that's not "denting the capabilities of Hamas to sustain action", I don't know what is.

Case in point:

In 2006, Hezbullah fired 4,000 rockets in 34 days.
In 2014, Gaza fired 4,564 rockets in 50 days.
In 2021, Gaza fired 4,360 rockets were fired in just 11 days.

So if ground invasions are out and air-strikes aren't cutting it, what exactly does that leave Israel with? The Iron Dome does have a 90% interception rate, sure, but you are missing the point there in that it is far cheaper and easier for Hamas to sustain its rocket barrages then it is for Israel to maintain it's counter. That's basic logistics and attrition warfare, which also explains why Bibi even agreed to an armistice and the U.S. immediately was announcing it was going to resupply them; it's expensive and hard to keep the Iron Dome operating under such intensities. Even then, the system does have a saturation point at which it's ability to achieve that 90% doesn't happen because it's been exhausted of munitions or is overloaded with targets.

All of this is predicated on the false premise that Israel will not engage in ground warfare under any circumstances, which is laughable.

Vietnam, Afghanistan and the list goes on;

Both Vietnam and Afghanistan were countries on the other side of the ocean from the US (and with a huge land buffer between Afghanistan and the USSR's centers of power). The situations are NOT comparable. Neither the US nor the USSR ever experienced artillery barrages on their civilian populations from these areas. If you think that Hamas can exhaust Israel's will to fight under these conditions, the way Vietnam and Afghanistan did to the American people's will, think again. And that's after 16 years of on and off fighting with Gaza. Israel can sustain the status quo for a very, very long time, and if Israel actually felt threatened by these "thousand cuts", then well, it still has a LOT of reserve military power that it never used in this conflict, including the option of ground operations.

In the meantime, Hamas' own stated goals of "defending Jerusalem" have not been realized, and furthermore, Israel has announced that it'll change the rules of the game, and will no longer contain and ignore low-intensity rocket fire from Gaza. It remains to be seen which side will actually follow their own stated policies, although so far Hamas has already dropped the ball in this regard.
 
Last edited:

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
All of this is predicated on the false premise that Israel will not engage in ground warfare under any circumstances, which is laughable.
Even more, I'd say @History Learner is using the kind of logic and armchair tactics a person develops from playing video games. You reach the boss and if you lose, you try again and again, improving your tactics each time until eventually, you beat the boss. The boss monster meanwhile never adapts, changes tactics, or gets harder. Hence if they adapt to Iron Dome and beat it, they win. Also, Palestine can just reload their save and get the 1967 borders they rejected before back.

It doesn't seem to occur to him that Israel managed to survive from 1948 to 2011 without Iron Dome, so managing a counter to this one defense won't win (boss monsters in games also generally have a pretty limited moveset). Moreover, there's no possibility of a video game boss developing new and better defenses, unlike Israel which is constantly innovating, and just rolled out Iron Beam.

History Learner's tickling himself over how they can bleed Israel white from the cost of interceptors while Israel is currently in the process of deploying a laser-based defense system that's designed to blow away swarms of incoming missiles and mortars at negligible cost.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Most people forget here,then Natanjahu started another war by taking palestinan lands becouse he is conman,and he need that jewish populace would forget his crimes if he kill enough palestinian.And it seems,that his election tactic works.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
It's rather curious that people theorize that Netanyahu is causing the wars to benefit his political position, given that his popularity always rises in time of peace and drops when there are more attacks.

March, before the attacks, he was steadily gaining popularity, and Likud was poised to pick up another 30 seats, cementing his position.

Now in May after an outbreak of violence, he's now facing serious challenges.

uq4ynmgpwkehbzah9gt_aq.png

Fact is, despite fake news claims, Netanyahu's position is much more precarious because if you chart his overall popularity, it has always been at its highest when there is peace. He gained dramatically during the 2010-11 peace talks and then hit his lowest point when they broke down and rocket/mortar attacks more than tripled over 2012. He gained more over the 2013-2014 peace talks and then dropped like a rock again during the 2015-16 Knife Intifada. During 2017-18 the Trump Peace plan led to nations like the UAE and Bahrain recognizing Israel for the first time, and Netanyahu gained significantly from his 2016 low.

Really the idea that Netanyahu stands to gain popularity from war flies in the face of all history and evidence.
 

paulobrito

Well-known member
Maybe, but history also points that Netanyahu provokes the Hamas everytime an election is near provoking said conflict.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
Beyond the fact the author in question makes several claims he is unable to provide any evidence for-beyond claiming it happened and stating multiple sources he never elaborates on-why, exactly, would the AP have to be threatened if they are working with Hamas?
Honestly, the Israel-Palestine conflict is a messy thing with a lot of gray areas. Anyone taking up the fight against journalists though? Clearly in the right to do so. I personally wouldn’t be caught dead trying to defend journalists.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Maybe, but history also points that Netanyahu provokes the Hamas everytime an election is near provoking said conflict.
That's a weird way of spelling "The Israeli Supreme Court" given the "provocation" was their evicting six families for not paying rent.

Also, the elections were finished in March. The violence broke out in May. Either time isn't linear anymore or there's some confusion going on as to how causality works. There will be a presidential election in June but that has nothing to do with Netanyahu.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Recording of a conversation between the IDF and a Palestinian, attempting to encourage the Palestinian to evacuate children:

Palestinian: I can't get all people out I need at least two hours to get them out of there.
IDF: Listen, we are going to bomb the building.
Palestinian: You want to bomb, bomb whatever you want.
IDF: No brother*, we need to do everything we can so you don't die.
Palestinians: We want to die
IDF: But you have responsibility for the children lives.
Palestinian: If the children need to die then they'll die
IDF: God forbid God forbid what do you want to die?!
Palestinian: This is how we reveal your cruelty.

 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Unfortunately, once the use of human shields is normalized in a conflict, trying to get the practice to stop is nearly impossible.

Israel needs to stop warning anyone in Gaza of anything, because they will only use the warning time to move shields into place, and will evac any Hamas bits that are worth protecting.

It may sound heartless, but fewer civies will be killed on both sides if Israel stops with the warnings, and starts being willing to 'shoot the hostage'. It's the only way Hamas might stop using humans shields, because otherwise the trend will continue.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
I doubt they'll ever stop the practice because it has worked so well for them. The main benefit from not warning them anymore is in getting the weapons and people who are attacking. Hopefully after a while, any non-combatants will figure out on their own that they have to stay away from Hamas once they realize they're there.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
If I remember right, the various Rules of War do have the 'if the enemy is blatantly ignoring/abusing the Rules of War, then raise the red flag' consequence in some pretty diplomatic language.

Problem is, that is only useful if the PR war wasn't so dominated by the Palestinians.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top