Culture Conservatives Optics Problem & Historical Revisionism/Iconoclasm

Bacle · Jun 17, 2020

PeliusAnar said:
The problem is that you are blaming the Right for image issues, which comes from the fake news media of the left they have no to limited control over. You say that the right is 'deflect, dodge, and get angry when people try to point out the Right has problems it needs to address'. What are these problems? It sounds like you think there are a lot of them. You can't have a discussion, when you aren't bringing anything to discuss.

I have repeatedly tried to point things out, but people don't want to listen and understand, only deflect, deny, and get angry.

The Left's 'lies' only work because the Right doesn't address the kernals of truth that they are built around, and seems to refuse to acknowledge those kernals even exist.

A big way to change this would be actually being willing to 'punch Right' when needed, and vocally/actively make closet racists, ethno-nationalists, and theocrats unwelcome in the party. I don't see much of that, because the GOP higher ups know that part of their base is like that, and don't care for the most part.

Keep blaming the Left for all the issues the Right is facing, and you'll keep handing them victories

DarthOne · Jun 17, 2020

Bacle said:
I have repeatedly tried to point things out, but people don't want to listen and understand, only deflect, deny, and get angry.

The Left's 'lies' only work because the Right doesn't address the kernals of truth that they are built around, and seems to refuse to acknowledge those kernals even exist.

A big way to change this would be actually being willing to 'punch Right' when needed, and vocally/actively make closet racists, ethno-nationalists, and theocrats unwelcome in the party. I don't see much of that, because the GOP higher ups know that part of their base is like that, and don't care for the most part.

Keep blaming the Left for all the issues the Right is facing, and you'll keep handing them victories

Probably because if they did admit it, they'd undermine their own position. The Left would have a complete field day.

S'task · Jun 17, 2020

Bacle said:
A big way to change this would be actually being willing to 'punch Right' when needed, and vocally/actively make closet racists, ethno-nationalists, and theocrats unwelcome in the party. I don't see much of that, because the GOP higher ups know that part of their base is like that, and don't care for the most part.

When has that not happened?

No, seriously, show a time when racists, ethno-nationalists, and theocrats have no been made unwelcome in the Republican party.

The most recent situation where you can argue that you had a clear ethno-nationalist / racist show up in the Republicans in any notable way was with Steve King. When he made comments that were clearly racists, he was nearly immediately stripped of all his committees in the House (which is as much as the minority party could do at the time) and the Republicans in his home district proceeded to primary him. They literally did what you're demanding they do.

Do you have any examples of them not doing that?

Deleted member 88 · Jun 17, 2020

Okay people-there would be no far right-no stormfront, no counter currents or daily stormer, or whatever remains of the dominionist movement or Christian theocrats(did they exist outside of liberals fevered imaginations circa 2007?)

These groups would not have a hearing-they would not be winning people over right now(the former to be precise), if it were not due to leftist agitation, a large amount of which is dripping with open racial overtones and animus.

These groups are yes part of the broad tent we call the "right". Which stretches from milquetoast republicans who ask "please I don't care about anything else-just give me my tax cut", to Turner Diaries level Neo Nazis.

Obviously we don't support the latter, and we disdain the former. The way we prevent the latter from gaining ground is defeating the left and ensuring a sane functional, moral and healthy society. Then the appeal of the "far right" would fade away.

If the left prevails-if conservativism is discredited. Then yes, we will see the rise of the far right again, as it will be the only alternative to total leftist hegemony. A most regrettable scenario indeed.

Bacle · Jun 17, 2020

DarthOne said:
Probably because if they did admit it, they'd undermine their own position. The Left would have a complete field day.

They want the truth and transparency from the Left, but are unwilling to deal with the devil's in thier own house

And they wonder why the Left's lies have gained such power.

S'task said:
When has that not happened?

No, seriously, show a time when racists, ethno-nationalists, and theocrats have no been made unwelcome in the Republican party.

The most recent situation where you can argue that you had a clear ethno-nationalist / racist show up in the Republicans in any notable way was with Steve King. When he made comments that were clearly racists, he was nearly immediately stripped of all his committees in the House (which is as much as the minority party could do at the time) and the Republicans in his home district proceeded to primary him. They literally did what you're demanding they do.

Do you have any examples of them not doing that?

No, they do hit them when they have official capacity, like with King.

I am talking about the...questionable parts of the base, who stay smart and low key when they are not in what they see as 'like-minded company'. I know damn well they exist, and I am slowly beginning to see the signs of similar things in others.

Until the GOP leadership and base are willing do something about the closet racists, instead of trying to ignore thier existence as 'too small to matter', the Dems are going to maintain a seeming-moral high ground in the eyes of much of the public.

I am trying to help the Right gain ground and win in the long run. But shit like what has happened after George Floyd's killing isn't happening simply because the Left has as much power as it does. For the Right to pull power away from the Left, some cancers in thier base will have to be excised publicly. Dragging the Left's worst bits out to unmask them, and moving more conservatives into culturally powerful positions is not enough to win in the long term, not anymore.

DarthOne · Jun 17, 2020

And how many of those various unsavory types are in the Republican party because the media has been smearing them for generations?

Bacle · Jun 17, 2020

DarthOne said:
And how many of those various unsavory types are in the Republican party because the media has been smearing them for generations?

Sometimes the smears are deserved and/or accurate, have you considered that?

The GOP should not welcome them anymore than the Dems should welcome Antifa.

Certified_Heterosexual · Jun 17, 2020

Most of those unsavory types are what we call "blackpilled"—permanent depressives who don't vote and basically sit around moaning and waiting for Western Civilization to collapse and spontaneously prove them right. They're blown way out of proportion, they're feds, con artists, and utter underclass detritus, and very few of them will ever be able to shed their resentment long enough to accomplish the slightest thing to actually draw people to their ideology.

Even thinking about them is a waste of time.

Bacle · Jun 17, 2020

Certified_Heterosexual said:
Most of those unsavory types are what we call "blackpilled"—permanent depressives who don't vote and basically sit around moaning and waiting for Western Civilization to collapse and spontaneously prove them right. They're blown way out of proportion, they're feds, con artists, and utter underclass detritus, and very few of them will ever be able to shed their resentment long enough to accomplish the slightest thing to actually draw people to their ideology.

Even thinking about them is a waste of time.

Among the younger bits of the GOP, this is probably true.

Among the older bits, it's the closet racists and Ethno-nationalists who are the unsavory types. They are just more clever and smart (most of the time) about who they express those sentiments around, so they are less visible and harder to ferret out unless they blow their own cover.

LifeisTiresome · Jun 17, 2020

https://www.the-sietch.com/index.php?threads/cultural-destruction-and-white-guilt.2791/page-3#post-72125

Tim "Its complicated" Pool has video about how schools are erasing Washington and Jefferson due to BLM

Everyday that passes, my observations become true. Now only if they would make me rich

S'task · Jun 17, 2020

Bacle said:
Until the GOP leadership and base are willing do something about the closet racists, instead of trying to ignore thier existence as 'too small to matter', the Dems are going to maintain a seeming-moral high ground in the eyes of much of the public.

OK, what would you have them do?

Disavow racism? They do that all the time.

Kick them out? The way political parties are structured in the US they cannot kick them out. What your political party association is is entirely up to the individual in question, in many places it's literally a checkbox you fill out when you file your voter registration card and none of the political parties have any say over the matter.

What exactly do you want them to do? What statements or actions do you feel need to be made further than have been made already? You sit here complaining that "they exist", yet you offer nothing more than anecdotal evidence and demand "something must be done" but don't specify what actions you would like to see taken to demonstrate what you desire.

This makes it seem like you're demanding the impossible to folks. The Republicans already kick out racists when they get power in the party. They already disavow racism and say it has no place in the party. They cannot control who self identifies as a "Republican" as that is outright impossible in the American party system. So again, what exactly do you feel would work to demonstrate their rejection of these groups?

Bacle · Jun 17, 2020

S'task said:
OK, what would you have them do?

Disavow racism? They do that all the time.

Kick them out? The way political parties are structured in the US they cannot kick them out. What your political party association is is entirely up to the individual in question, in many places it's literally a checkbox you fill out when you file your voter registration card and none of the political parties have any say over the matter.

What exactly do you want them to do? What statements or actions do you feel need to be made further than have been made already? You sit here complaining that "they exist", yet you offer nothing more than anecdotal evidence and demand "something must be done" but don't specify what actions you would like to see taken to demonstrate what you desire.

This makes it seem like you're demanding the impossible to folks. The Republicans already kick out racists when they get power in the party. They already disavow racism and say it has no place in the party. They cannot control who self identifies as a "Republican" as that is outright impossible in the American party system. So again, what exactly do you feel would work to demonstrate their rejection of these groups?

One thing the Right could do is not try to act like removing Confederate monuments and such is so horrible. Trump's reasoning for not renaming bases does not hold for slave auction blocks, Confederate flags, and the like on public/gov grounds.

Stop fighting their removal from public places, and it could help start to change the perception of the GOP.

No one is going to forget slavery and Jim Crow happened just because those bits are no longer displayed in public.

LifeisTiresome · Jun 17, 2020

Bacle said:
One thing the Right could do is not try to act like removing Confederate monuments and such is so horrible. Trump's reasoning for not renaming bases does not hold for slave auction blocks, Confederate flags, and the like on public/gov grounds.

Stop fighting their removal from public places, and it could help start to change the perception of the GOP.

No one is going to forget slavery and Jim Crow happened just because those bits are no longer displayed in public.

Not an american mind you. But I remind you what I have said before.

Yeah westerners

Keep appeasing people who hate you. Keep agreeing with them that Jefferson is scum, Alexander is scum, Columbus is scum. All the greats of yesteryear of the west is scum.

That will surely make these people forgive you

Turkey has the right idea. Never, ever fucking apologize. Celebrate them instead.

https://www.the-sietch.com/index.php?threads/greek-islanders-on-lesbos-attack-police-over-new-migrant-center.2066/page-5#post-48167

Taner Akcam has written the following:[33]

In Turkish discourse, the following argument is commonly heard: "If we accept the Genocide, then the claim for reparations will soon follow." It shows that the main fear is not what we should call the event, but what comes after the event.

Click to expand...

According to Fatma Müge Göçek, many Turkish journalists have viewed the issue of recognition as "an imposition on the Turkish state and society, one that would solely benefit the Armenians". In one editorial a Turkish journalist wrote "If you once acknowledge, then see what will happen next? From demands for restitution to land...".[34]

++++++++++++++++

One needs to look at the West and see that it has massive problems coming from self-hatred and white guilt. Turkey seems to be going the route of wanting to avoid all this. What benefit does Turkey get from agreeing that it was a genocide is how they see things. The answer is nothing. It will become a source of crying for reparations and demands for this action and that action to rectify it along with possibilities of leftists now trying to guilt you into self-annihilation.

Exactly what we are seeing right now. The strong have become weak and is being torn from the inside as people cry about this and that while themselves planning to do those very acts against you.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Doing what you ask for is frankly appeasement to my mind.

Bigking321 · Jun 17, 2020

Bacle said:
No one is going to forget slavery and Jim Crow happened just because those bits are no longer displayed in public.

You would be surprised...

Revisionist history is happening all the time now.

Learn from history or you will be doomed to repeat it, and one side is hell bent on erasing things they deem problematic or twisting truth into a pretzel to get the results they want.

I'd rather have history, warts and all. Build monuments to everything and explain it, the great and the terrible. But don't simply destroy it.

PeliusAnar · Jun 17, 2020

Bacle said:
One thing the Right could do is not try to act like removing Confederate monuments and such is so horrible. Trump's reasoning for not renaming bases does not hold for slave auction blocks, Confederate flags, and the like on public/gov grounds.

Stop fighting their removal from public places, and it could help start to change the perception of the GOP.

No one is going to forget slavery and Jim Crow happened just because those bits are no longer displayed in public.

For monuments, the issue is outside groups coming in and demanding they be taken down. If the monuments should go, just have a vote in that county or state. I want to take Lee as an example. His surrender and forcing the Confederate army to stand down and not engage in guerilla warfare was huge and he deserves massive praises for not turning the US into the Middle East. On the flip side, his opinion of African Americans at that time was not good, and while he wasn't the worst person in the Confederacy, he was not a good person in this regard. It is a mixed bag.

If Virginia wants to take his statue down, the governor should announce a special vote come election time. If the majority want it down, take the statue down. If they don't, then leave it up. The problem is that he just decided to make a decision in the moment. What is to stop a governor in the future from saying that MLK was communist and order his statues ripped down? If you want to make it a national law, then pass an admendment, get support for it.

That is the problem I have with the left. They want to rule through absolute power and avoid any kind of accountability or voting. It is all rule through the courts or decrees.

Take the LBGT ruling by the Supreme Court. Do I think it is a good thing, yes. Do I think the Supreme Court should have ruled on it, no. Same with everything else. You may say that the governor of Virginia was elected, well if he campaigned on the issue of ripping down the statues, then sure. It is like Trump and the wall. Trump kept saying he would build a wall, it was a very clear campaign point and controversial position he took a stand on. I can tell you that the governor of Virginia did not campaign on taking down the statues.

That is my problem, it is all reactionary to the loudest and a very stupid portion of the electorate.

You want to know something. I agree fuck the Confederate statues. All of the leaders in the Confederacy were horrible to not good people. Those statues do have historical significance but are also symbols of a failed cause founded in the belief of slavery. Even with all that said, don't take away people's choice in the matter. Because the moment you allow that, the next day they may come for your statues or your rights. That is my problem with mobs tearing them down.

Bacle · Jun 17, 2020

LifeisTiresome said:
Doing what you ask for is frankly appeasement to my mind.

Going after Jefferson and the like is uncalled for, and I have never supported that type of stuff.

Getting Confederate items out of public and government spaces is not at all the same thing.

I am not 'appeasing' anyone with my distaste for Confederate symbols and they represent.

PeliusAnar said:
For monuments, the issue is outside groups coming in and demanding they be taken down. If the monuments should go, just have a vote in that county or state. I want to take Lee as an example. His surrender and forcing the Confederate army to stand down and not engage in guerilla warfare was huge and he deserves massive praises for not turning the US into the Middle East. On the flip side, his opinion of African Americans at that time was not good, and while he wasn't the worst person in the Confederacy, he was not a good person in this regard. It is a mixed bag.

If Virginia wants to take his statue down, the governor should announce a special vote come election time. If the majority want it down, take the statue down. If they don't, then leave it up. The problem is that he just decided to make a decision in the moment. What is to stop a governor in the future from saying that MLK was communist and order his statues ripped down? If you want to make it a national law, then pass an admendment, get support for it.

That is the problem I have with the left. They want to rule through absolute power and avoid any kind of accountability or voting. It is all rule through the courts or decrees.

Take the LBGT ruling by the Supreme Court. Do I think it is a good thing, yes. Do I think the Supreme Court should have ruled on it, no. Same with everything else. You may say that the governor of Virginia was elected, well if he campaigned on the issue of ripping down the statues, then sure. It is like Trump and the wall. Trump kept saying he would build a wall, it was a very clear campaign point and controversial position he took a stand on. I can tell you that the governor of Virginia did not campaign on taking down the statues.

That is my problem, it is all reactionary to the loudest and a very stupid portion of the electorate.

You want to know something. I agree fuck the Confederate statues. All of the leaders in the Confederacy were horrible to not good people. Those statues do have historical significance but are also symbols of a failed cause founded in the belief of slavery. Even with all that said, don't take away people's choice in the matter. Because the moment you allow that, the next day they may come for your statues or your rights. That is my problem with mobs tearing them down.

Now your view is a more nuanced one that I think has a reasonable ground to stand on.

Local groups should be the final arbiter, I agree, but those symbols are something that can affect more than just the local area.

I'm watching my town grapple with the legacy of the Stapleton neighborhood, named after a KKK member who became governor and the airport named after him that used to stand there. Changing the name was voted down a few years back, but it sounds like it is now back on the table because people are more sensitive to what that name represents now.

They have part of the Tuskegee Memorial Highway right next to it, and a few other options to rename the area. It doesn't seem unreasonable to remove the current name and find a suitable one that is already part of that area to switch to.

Terthna · Jun 17, 2020

Bacle said:
One thing the Right could do is not try to act like removing Confederate monuments and such is so horrible. Trump's reasoning for not renaming bases does not hold for slave auction blocks, Confederate flags, and the like on public/gov grounds.

Stop fighting their removal from public places, and it could help start to change the perception of the GOP.

No one is going to forget slavery and Jim Crow happened just because those bits are no longer displayed in public.

I'm further left than you are, and I agree that removing Confederate monuments and such is horrible; irredeemably so. There is nothing racist about wanting to preserve monuments to our history, regardless of what you think they represent.

Bacle · Jun 17, 2020

Terthna said:
I'm further left than you are, and I agree that removing Confederate monuments and such is horrible; irredeemably so. There is nothing racist about wanting to preserve monuments to our history, regardless of what you think they represent.

I am for preserving them in museums, not in/on/at public places and government buildings.

It's a nuance that usually gets lost in these fights.

Terthna · Jun 17, 2020

Bacle said:
I am for preserving them in museums, not in/on/at public places and government buildings.

It's a nuance that usually gets lost in these fights.

And I am against preserving them in museums, because it is akin to sweeping the parts of our history we are ashamed of under the rug. Most people don't visit museums, but they do often find themselves in public places and government buildings. We shouldn't hide the blemishes on our nation's history; rather, we should instead shine as much light upon them so that we will never forget the mistakes of the past, and perhaps thereby avoid repeating them in the future.

Bacle · Jun 17, 2020

Terthna said:
And I am against preserving them in museums, because it is akin to sweeping the parts of our history we are ashamed of under the rug. Most people don't visit museums, but they do often find themselves in public places and government buildings. We shouldn't hide the blemishes on our nation's history; rather, we should instead shine as much light upon them so that we will never forget the mistakes of the past, and perhaps thereby avoid repeating them in the future.

That is one way to see those monuments, and not unreasonable from certain perspectives.

However the fact is there are a growing number of people who do not see them as reminders to learn from and not repeat. They see them as giving dignity and honor to the symbols of traitors, or as rallying places for white supremacists/Neo-Nazi's/Confederate apologists.

Putting them in a museum keeps them safe, preserves them so they can teach those lessons, and doesn't outright destroy them as much of the Left want.

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