What has it done besides have them get stuff from China Iran and North Korea
Russian Invasion of Ukraine 2022
- Thread starter killerofa23
- Start date
He doesn't care, he just wants to try to harangue me, attempt emotional blackmail against me for what are just the realities of warfare, and act like every loss of life in Ukraine is now the fault of people like me and Trump.
All because Trump isn't doing what he wants in Ukraine, because I have dared to say that Zelensky fucked up in the Oval Office and that UA's not getting all it's land back, Zach now has to make every strike and attack in UA a moment to shit on Trump's strategy and anyone who is supporting Trump's approach.
It's hurt Russian revenue streams, particularly in the oil sector, and the moves Trump is making to push the price of oil down will also hurt Putin's pocket book.
It's also forced Russia to burn through there foreign currency reserves, that they cannot easily refill, and effectively gutted the Russians arms sales market, as well as hampering their ability to build replacements for their higher end gear, like their AWACS and bombers.
RenegadeInterrupt
Anarcho-Centrist Judeo-Satanic Imperialist
I wouldn't even bother with him at this point. He's got TDS, thinks Trump is Literally Hitler at this point probably.
And yet they still use expensive Iskander-M missiles which srnt cheap, on civilians.
Nothing Trump has threatened sanctions....that's it.
Russia has shown every single time to not care.
These strikes, days after Witkoff talked with Putin and Kellog made plans.
The last one with kids? Right after trump threatened sanctions.....
What is the plan tk end the war
No....
This is what happens when I disagree with the foreign policy that has done nothing but prolong the war, vs the domestic policy in which I enjoy
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
I literally already spelled this out for you.
Whether it's because of ideological blindness, or just baseline incompetence, I have no confidence whatsoever in your ability to contribute to the American military as any type of military intelligence personnel.
Please, for the safety and security of our country, resign or ask for reassignment to something more befitting your abilities.
Then you have absolutely no idea about what I actually do.
So far all I have seen the current admin do is say "oops Russia made a mistake" that killed what, 30 something and injured over 100?
It is the fact that sanctions have done absolutely nothing but prolong this war, and it has been pointed out that the only way to stop the war, is to force Russia to stop, and the only way is to force them to leave Ukraine.
I am saying this knowing what I know. The Russians armt going to care about sanctions, they have operated for what, over 3 years if war with sanctions on them?
All they did is switch where they got things.
If sanctions worked, they wouldn't waste Iskander-M missiles on...something they couldn't even confirm.
Or on a playground...
Iskander-M missiles armt cheap, and are very valuable long range munitions.
If they were hurting they wouldn't be wasting them.
Should I point out that absolutely no one on this forum except probably me knows the full extent of what is going on in this war.
All I see is people defending Trump prolonging this war because he cares more for what the Russians want then the civilians dying.
Honestly I would rather him focus domestically and leave the foreign policy to Rubio and Rubio only.
You're both half right.
The sanctions do little to restrain Russia on the military side of things.
But the economic damage they reduce how much of the military things Russia can buy. How much exactly, hard to say, but some economic damage is there. Hard to measure it, by nature of the topic sanction dodging and its effectiveness are clandestine matters.
On the third hand, politicians love using sanctions as a cop out and excuse themselves with that out of doing more challenging things.
Short of deploying US troops to fight the Russian's directly, on UA soil, engaging in negotiations towards ending this war on some DMZ line is the best and fastest way to end the war.
Biden is the one who 'prolonged' this war, when an early surge of equipment to UA could have allowed UA to take advantage of it's early momentum. But Biden feared 'escalation' more than UA losing ground and troops, yet wouldn't even attempt to start negotiations on a way to end this war.
Trump isn't going to send US troops to fight and die for UA, which is what it would take to end the fighting in a manner UA wants, with all it's lands back and war crime trial for Russian leadership. No amount of rushed or heavy aid, short of giving UA nukes, is going to let UA get the victory it wants, unless it is teh US directly fighting Russia on UA's soil.
And frankly I think Zelensky wants to pull NATO into the fight against Russia and get foreign troops to fight and die to get UA's lands back, no matter how those nations feel domestically.
Trump has a much more serious issue in the CCP threat to Taiwan and our Pacific allies, and we do not have infinite munitions or production capacity, while our Pacific allies have not acted like nearly as poorly on the diplomatic stage as Zelensky and UA have, nor are they calling US people traitors or backstabbers for not doing defense charity, like many in UA have done.
On the contrary, i could think of such amounts and many other people can too. I don't think US or EU politicians would be comfortable thinking of the bills such amounts would entail, but if you can't think of such amounts of military equipment, that's only an admission of mental limitations on your part.
It's not a more serious issue. It's not a less serious issue. It's the eastern face of the same issue called DragonBear.
It has nothing to do with nitpicking about diplomatic pleasantries while the far more important elephant in the room is that some people who should know better want to pretend that Russia and China do not cooperate in international elbowing campaigns and will not continue to do so in the future no matter how nice and amicable one is going to be to the junior partner of that informal alliance.
Except Russia has said they will not accept any sort of DMZ. They will only accept completely disarmed Ukraine....
Yes, because he was a fucking idiot. We agree here.
The war won't end at all, without forcing Russia. Even just keeping it where it is won't happen without helping Ukraine with aid and forcing russia....
I disagree.
He is willing to concede lands in a sense of they are occupied lands, but will agree to hold the war if he losses land.
Has made this clear.
so...russia and china working together isnt an issue?
i mean, it males sense why the people of UA have when we have basically allowed russia to take more and led to children and innocent civilians to die.
I got it from a discord, will admit I was wrong in that post.
To a degree, he then later says "you shouldn't start a fight with someone bigger and expect to win without the missiles" completely opposite what he says at the start......
strunkenwhite
Well-known member
You can't force negotiations on an unwilling adversary without forcing the issue by being "in ur base killin ur doodz" so to speak. You and I (and fucking everyone) agree that the US should not go that far.
Short of that, I also agree with you that Biden should have pushed more support to Ukraine to get Russia to (be serious at) the negotiating table more quickly. But conversely, why do you not fault Trump for the same reason: not pushing harder for more support to Ukraine to get Russia to be more serious about peace? Browbeating Zelensky is fine and all but, as Trump found out, he wasn't actually the obstacle. In the meantime,
Ukraine's ideal end to the war is unlikely to come to pass, true. But do you honestly think that if we gave Ukraine more support their appetite would grow so large they absolutely refused to settle for any less? I don't think that would happen. Rather, I think the path we are currently on is one where Russia's terms are unacceptable for any version of Ukraine that wants to exist as an independent state and Russia intends to grind Ukraine down to a level where it will accept that loss of independence. Heavier support would more likely cause Russia, not Ukraine, to reevaluate its appetite.
If as seems to be the case you believe the contrary to what I just said, on what do you base that opinion?
The amount needed to do that would also strip a lot of our Pacific allies of the gear they are depending on from the US, and likely involve so much US logistics tail that we'd effectively have troops in UA from all the trainers and maintainers involved.
And it would have no guarantee of working, because UA's military leadership is post-Soviet too, unfortunately.
Short of a complete military leadership change, and short of dropping UA's draft age to 18 (and thus endangering the small cohort UA needs to survive long term), holding ground, not going on any real offensives, is the best hope UA has.
Getting Russia to a position of neutrality in a US/CCP fight is more useful to the US strategic picture than an intact Ukraine.
Whether getting Russia to be neutral in that fight is possible, is a different question, and I do think that Russia is likely to play fuck-fuck games even if it pretends to be neutral.
However, short of preparing to fight Russia directly over UA, no amount of realistic gear and munitions deliveries are going to do more than help UA hold the line.
And Russia's maximalist demands aren't going to be any more realistically achievable than Ukraine's maximalist war goals of getting it's lands back and putting Putin on trial for war crimes.
Neither side is likely to be happy with the outcome of a peace settlement.
And short of sending unrealistic amounts of aid or having the US directly engage in combat against Russian forces in Ukraine, sanctions are the best tools available to put enough economic pressure on Russia that their war machine cannabilizes itself and Russia's domestic economy badly enough to force the Russian's to at least stop advancing on the ground.
He's made clear he still wants into NATO and keeps pressuring for it, he's made clear he still think a 'just' end to the war includes war crimes trials for Russians, and made clear that he will never accept he may not get some of those occupied lands back.
Zelensky has absolutely made clear he doesn't actually have a realistic plan for ending the war with an outcome for UA that is both realistic and achievable, instead of aspirationally and based on hope that domestic politics and international politics in multiple countries change from what they are now.
Russia and the CCP will always work together at some level, complete breaking of them from relations and ties with each other was never realistic.
But getting Russia to be 'neutral' in a CCP/US fight isn't without strategic benefits, and their are multiple US industries which would like to enter back into the Russian market.
Putin trying to play Trump for a fool is going to backfire on Russia, in the long term, so long as the Trump hate from UA doesn't cause Trump to wash his hands of the whole affair, and that is a risk UA needs to grapple with when dealing with western media and PR angles.
Hating on Trump will not help UA in any way, shape, or form, yet a lot of NAFO types and frankly types like you don't ever seem to get that your attempts to smear and discredit Trump's foreign policy do absolutely nothing to help UA, and do cause more people to be willing to just wash their hands of UA's mess and ignore your opinions.
Yes, Trump is a mediator in the middle, and is going to say things both sides do not like, because both UA and Russia want only their PR talking points in western media.
The fact is, Zelensky doesn't have a path to the victory he keeps promising UA, without outside intervention on the scale of the UN deployment to Korea during the Korean War.
And Trump's statement is his way of pointing out that UA's maximalist victory goals, against an opponent the size of Russia, are simply not realistic, and that Zelensky should have realized/should realize now that he was/is selling UA on a 'victory' he has no way to achieve without outside intervention that simply isn't likely to happen.
Because the situation UA found itself in when Trump was sworn in is such that no amount of aid surging is going to negate the inherent manpower and leadership issues that are hampering UA.
I am not going to demand unrealistic outcomes from Trump; Trump got handed a mess in UA by Biden and the rest of the west in general, and now people are angry at Trump for being realistic about UA's situation, rather than just another cheerleader who drips weapons into UA to keep the Russia army occupied and bogged down indefinitely.
Because that is all that is really happening in UA, is the Russian forced are being bogged down and occupied dealing with UA, and every mobik dead in UA is one that cannot threaten the Baltics or Poland in the future.
Trump wants to end the fighting, rather than use UA's population as an ablative meatshield for NATO rearming and rebuilding, which is what most of Europe wants.
I believe that as along as UA thinks it's support from the US and west will never seriously stop or need to be fully repaid, they won't accept any loss of lands in the long term, and do not think they need to seriously negotiate with an expectation of making some formal territorial consessions.
I've heard and seen multiple people who are dealing with Ukraine say similar things, that so long as UA thinks it's western support is indefinite and effectively never needs to be repaid, that UA thinks it has enough 'cards' to be able to 'beat' Russia badly enough to get it's lands back.
I think both western cheerleading and Zelensky's maximalist victory goals have given people in UA a false sense of their own power and importance to the rest of the world, as well as false hopes about what can realistically be achieved on the ground and at negotiations.
WHAT gear. Outside of few things like Patriots those are completely different sets of equipment needed.
By now you should know better than to give me empty talking points...
Ukrainians don't need anti ship missiles and long range aircraft - Black Sea Fleet was driven into hiding already and they don't have a long way to the front.
They also aren't Afghans or Iraqis who need westerners to do their basic technical tasks.
For some types of gear this argument is completely missing. You won't be shipping around thousands of MBTs around the Pacific islands or fly old F-16's with 300 mile combat radius for patrols over oceans (sorry, no tankers, all are reserved for giving more range to the better planes, especially once Chinese air force starts taking shots at the tankers with their long range AAMs). It would be a logistical nightmare to make much use of those in the Pacific theater even if you had nothing better to do with them.
There are no guarantees in war...
They were caught mid-transition to western style and they are learning pretty well from what i'm hearing.
Great of you to make such points, they betray your lack of deep knowledge in the topic.
Ukraine doesn't need dumb clueless 18 year olds on the frontline, there is nothing magical about their military value, it's a talking point for people who want excuses to blame Ukraine for not doing better rather than lagging western aid.
The bottleneck for Ukraine generating more combat power is not lack of light infantry, and that's all Ukraine would have to gear additional millions of troops with even if it wanted to have them.
Sure, it would slow down Russian advances to fill up frontline trenches denser... but also increase losses, because the frontline is now very drone/artillery heavy warfare, so leaving as few targets out as possible has some merits in itself.
They don't have thousands of armored vehicles and artillery weapons that they are leaving unused because they are out of people to use them.
If they did get those, then they could technically use them for more and larger scale Kursk/Belogrod cross border distractions, and it could knock Russia off balance, but they would need some time to train troops with those vehicles first to form them into decent-ish mechanized divisions and know westerners won't be threatening aid suspension over "escalatory" incursions into Russia.
The main bottleneck, and i'm not the only one noticing it, is that they cannot replicate the western way of war even if they had best leadership in the world without western style airpower, and that's something they have only symbolic amounts of.
So they are stuck pretty much improvising with what they have using drones as a substitute, which is a completely new and different animal, even if a very interesting one. But it's still not the real deal.
Getting Russia to *lie about a position of neutrality to get all the carrot offered for it and helping China anyway when the shit hits the fan* is a much more realistic result of such attempts.
Self-delusion and believing enemy's obvious lies are not a war winning strategy.
The only guarantee of Russia not helping China is Russia either having nothing meaningful to help with, or dramatically different and optimistic variant leadership from current one.
Yes they will. But we should be talking about thousands of modern armored vehicles and hundreds of tac jets. Which are realistic.
Yet Russia sticks to them and will continue to do so. Because they do not have an easily media manipulated chattering class of pacifistic fools influencing the leadership. If they had one it would have been sent to a prison colony years ago.
Reminder that Russia has, as demonstrated many times, arrived at a point where they can and will refuse any peace settlement they are not happy with. War weariness is for peaceniks, not dictators.
Then make greater amounts realistic, at least it will make the Russian war machine cannibalize itself faster.
Russia is already waging war economy style, which is why they aren't advancing faster and are taking massive manpower losses for sparing expensive steel and silicon.
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RenegadeInterrupt
Anarcho-Centrist Judeo-Satanic Imperialist
Russia and China are already feuding over Central Asia, North Korea and Europe. China wants amicable relations with Europe/EU and Russia wants to piss that all away over Ukraine. Best to pick and pull apart the loose threads that currently exist in the Russo-Chinese "alliance". If China and the EU form an alliance of convenience against the US that is actually good for the US in the long term because if Russia and China established a formal defense/offense alliance that would be MUCH worse.
strunkenwhite
Well-known member
All the focus on how to get Ukraine to take negotiations seriously, little to none on Russia, as per usual. Well, I tried.
(For the record, I don't believe you're correct regarding the Ukrainians being so unwilling to cede any land. For example, when they went to Saudi Arabia for those talks with Rubio, and Rubio said they would have to cede land, I'm not aware that Ukraine contradicted him.)
And yet, the only one that has been forced to change its demands is Ukraine, and all Russia has been told is "stop...or we will sanction you more!" And they don't stop.
Russia will not back down from its demands, and has shown this entire time they want.
If they have to stall and act like they are willing to peace then they will.
Russia won't agree to one until it is happy.
And yet again, they have been sanctioned for 3 Years now, and yet... they keep going, paying huge bonus for people to join.
Except you are wrong, he said he is willing to cease land if it means lasting peace.
He knows it won't, but he is willing to give it a try if it ends the killing.
No, he has routinely said that he is willing to end it at current borders, if it means that people stop dieing and negotiations open for future talks to potentially bring back land etc.
Russia has saud they wint ceade land.
yeah...so why let the russians be a huge supporter of the CCP in a eventual war?
You mean the same industries that Russia nationalized upon being sanctioned and would most likely do the same as soon as we went hot against China?
Russia will be supplying China with more then we would get out kf such an agreement.
You sound like Nixon
Except Trump has walked into every aspect of russia playing him for a fool.
Because they are pointing out the truth that Trump has been soft on Russia but hard on Ukraine?
Except he has said very little that Russia doesn't like and has basically sucked them off...the entire fucking time. He didn't even go off on the Russians for the strike that killed 9 kids and injured many more....
He doesn't actually care for the people dying he only cares kf the war ends. If that causes millions to be killed by the Russians he doesn't care.
Eh, all it takes is the realization the war isn't ending soon to cause Russians to push back.
Add in he hasn't drafted thr main fighting age yet.
Ukraine has numerous things they can do, most of which is get a bargaining chip or force the russians to continue to bleed them.
That is truly all they need to do.
No, trumps statements refer to the fact that he says Ukraine STARTED THE WAR, and shouldn't have because Russia is bigger and they don't have enough missiles.
Either he is mistaking putin for Zelesnky or Ukraine for russia....
Doomsought
Well-known member
Ukrain is in the right to want to prolong the war. Just as the US would be in the right to not be involved in the war.